20 Second disqualification count and FT

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

If the defense is not lined up for the Fts because the coach has them huddling following the fifth foul. There is time on the clock.
So it appears you give them a delay warning but DO NOT shoot the fts until the D has two lined up.

That is NOT a delay warning situation -- it's an immediate T (well, in practice, you tell the coach you need the two players before you assess the T).

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Even if they had already reported to the table, and were kneeling on the X?

The post by Adam is correct. You do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in. At that time, you allow all subs who have reported to enter.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

So if a coach wants to use the time, he should do this.
Have a sub ready but don't send him to the table until 20 seconds. However, if he reports and the coach then calls him over and his players, a semi-on court timeout, are you then going to start the game?


So for the Fts if the coach wants to keep talking to them, just shoot them. The opposing team is shooting. Sounds good to me.

Repeatedly say "this is not a time-out" and get the team(s) out the huddle. It irritates me that coaches think they are entitled to a free time-out in these situations.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in. At that time, you allow all subs who have reported to enter.

Sounds good, but I just did a quick rulebook, and casebook, search for "substitute" and I couldn't find a citation. Can someone please provide such a citation for "do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in"?

[mutantducky]

Repeatedly say "this is not a time-out" and get the team(s) out the huddle

I've done that. I did it in my last game and got on the coach to get a sub. But it doesn't seem against the rules for a coach to do exactly that, make it an unofficial hurried Timeout. As long as it lasts under 20 seconds. I'd rather see a rule change to outlaw it. I'd like to get rid of the warning horn after five seconds.
Maybe- the Coach has 10 seconds to send a sub to the table. Once the sub is there and is beckoned onto the court, play is ready to begin. This would allow the coach basically no time to do a huddle(by the time the players get to the coach, we would be talking about five seconds at the most) and also could lead to delay of game warnings if the Coach tries to do that.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

Repeatedly say "this is not a time-out" and get the team(s) out the huddle

I've done that. I did it in my last game and got on the coach to get a sub. But it doesn't seem against the rules for a coach to do exactly that, make it an unofficial hurried Timeout. As long as it lasts under 20 seconds. .

It's not against the rules. S/He can use the 20 seconds how s/he wants -- many s/he wants to ask the team if they'd rather have player x or player y in the game.

FWIW, IL experimented with a "must replace the DQ'd player 'immediately' " rule a few (5-10) years ago. It worked well, imo.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sounds good, but I just did a quick rulebook, and casebook, search for "substitute" and I couldn't find a citation. Can someone please provide such a citation for "do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in"?

3-3-1c (from 2012-2013, but I'm sure it's still valid).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

3-3-1c (from 2012-2013, but I'm sure it's still valid).

3-3-1-C-Exception:
A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorer, giving his/her number.
c. During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls, substitutions may be made only
before the final attempt in the sequence and after the final attempt has been converted.
EXCEPTION: When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free
throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game.

This just doesn't do it for me, it's about multiple free throws. What if there are substitutes at the table, who have legally reported, and are kneeling on the X, when a player is disqualified, and there will be no free throws taken (no bonus, etc.)? How can we legally not allow those substitutes to enter before the disqualified player is replaced?

Are you sure that you aren't confusing this situation with the situation where a timeout can't be granted until the disqualified player is replaced? I did find a citation for that situation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

3-3-1-C-Exception:
A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorer, giving his/her number.
c. During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls, substitutions may be made only
before the final attempt in the sequence and after the final attempt has been converted.
EXCEPTION: When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free
throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game.

This just doesn't do it for me, it's about multiple free throws. What if there are substitutes at the table, who have legally reported, and are kneeling on the X, when a player is disqualified, and there will be no free throws taken (no bonus, etc.)? How can we legally not allow those substitutes to enter before the disqualified player is replaced?

Are you sure that you aren't confusing this situation with the situation where a timeout can't be granted until the disqualified player is replaced? I did find a citation for that situation.

Isn't that what we have -- a DQ'd player requiring to be replaced?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Isn't that what we have -- a DQ'd player requiring to be replaced?

This exception is for multiple free throws. If we have substitutes waiting at the table when a two shot foul is called, they normally have to wait until after the first shot. However, if said foul causes a player to be disqualified, then all (existing substitutes, and replacement for disqualified player) can enter before the first free throw.

Let's see a citation for "do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in" for a non free throw shooting situation (no bonus, not a shooting foul, etc.).

[Nevadaref]

Billy, I've seen instruction for both ways over the years. I really don't know what the current take is or if it matters. One such ruling is in the past interps thread on this site.

[Rich1]

I believe the prudent way to handle this is to first replace the disqualified player and then allow for other substitutions like you would at other times. I would not call in other subs for either team before the replacement is identified because it could create confusion. The purpose of td 20 second timer is to specifically deal with replacing the DQ'd player and nothing else happens until that's done.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Billy, I've seen instruction for both ways over the years. I really don't know what the current take is or if it matters. One such ruling is in the past interps thread on this site.

2007-08 Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 1: B1 is injured to the point that bench personnel are beckoned to the court. After B1 has been safely moved to the bench, Team B's head coach is notified that a substitute is required and instructs the timer to begin the 20-second replacement interval. Just as the interval begins, two substitutes from Team A approach the scorer's table to enter the game. RULING: Substitutes from either team may enter the game during this dead-ball period until the officials are ready to put the ball in play. The replacement interval is only for the substitute required for B1. If an eligible substitute does not report for B1 by the end of 20 seconds, a technical foul is assessed directly to the Team B head coach. (3-3-1d; 3-3-5; 10-5-3 Penalty)

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS
SITUATION 3: A5 is called for a fifth foul. The proper official notifies the head coach and instructs the timer to begin timing the replacement interval. After the 20-second warning horn and before the required substitute for A5 approaches the scorer’s table, (a) B6 and B7 report to the official scorer; (b) A6, who is replacing A1 reports to the official scorer; or (c) A3 requests a time-out. RULING: In (a) and (b), the properly reported substitutes shall be permitted to enter the game. In (c), a time-out shall not be granted while a replacement for A5 is pending. (3-3-1d; 5-8-3b)

2002-03 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS
SITUATION 3: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified timeframe before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1;10-5-1d; 5-8-3b)

2000-01 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 7: A6 and A7 report to the table as substitutes to enter the game. B5 commits his/her fifth personal foul. A4 goes to the free-throw line to shoot two free throws. B6 replaces B5 before A4 shoots the first free throw. A6 and A7 are also beckoned to come into the game. RULING: The official was correct in beckoning A6 and A7 to come with B6. When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game. (3-3-ic)

Two (red) to one (blue). Do we go with the majority, or the most recent interpretation(s), which, in this case, both point in the same direction?

bob jenkins: A actual rule citation (not annual interpretations with conflicting interpretations) would be greatly appreciated. I would really like to know the correct interpretation of "do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in". I'm only leaning toward that it's an incorrect interpretation. I would like to be convinced otherwise.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

The purpose of td 20 second timer is to specifically deal with replacing the DQ'd player and nothing else happens until that's done.

Sounds good, practical, and rational, but is it an actual NFHS rule, or just another local interpretation, or mechanic?

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sounds good, practical, and rational, but is it an actual NFHS rule, or just another local interpretation, or mechanic?

Its neither. It seems as though there is no clear cut and official guide to how this should be handled and that seems to be the best way in my view until further clarification from above my pay grade. Also, I employ that procedure when dealing with a DQ replacement when a 20 second count is needed. Most of the time coaches get in a sub right away for injuries and 5th fouls so we usually don't even get to start the clock.