Count the basket?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

...


Question: Would this be a correctable error for erroneously counting or cancelling a score?

I'm thinking of the scenario where the calling official waves off the shot. The coach asks to correct within the allowable time. And the officials discuss and agree that the foul occured after the release.

If they disallowed the basket by misapplying the rule, yes it is correctable. If it was just a matter of the calling official saying that the foul occurred first, then changing his mind later, no it's just bad judgment and we can't go back an fix it.

[MD Longhorn]

Seems to me it's entirely possible the foul happened first - why else would he be emphatic about it. Since you didn't discuss it, how do you know. You say it's obvious the shot was first ... but if the shot was in your primary, and the foul in his ... how do you know? (And is it possible the foul he's calling was significantly earlier than whatever you THOUGHT he was calling ... again, in HIS primary, and not where you would be looking with a 3-pointer about to go up).

At the VERY least, while the timing was obvious to you, perhaps it was equally obvious (but opposite) to him...

I'm also curious to the exact situation regarding him not wanting to talk about it. Did you try? How? What did he say? Etc.

[paxsonref]

The ball went in -- the basket should count unless your foul occured before the release of the ball

This is incorrect. It does not matter when the foul occurs, it matters when the foul is CALLED. If the whistle has not blown, a foul has not happened, therefore when this play happens, if its in the air when the whistle blows, count it, regardless of when the illegal contact started.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by paxsonref

This is incorrect. It does not matter when the foul occurs, it matters when the foul is CALLED. If the whistle has not blown, a foul has not happened, therefore when this play happens, if its in the air when the whistle blows, count it, regardless of when the illegal contact started.

I am not sure what you are trying to say, but:

If the contact occured before the release and then the horn sounds before the release of the ball, the ball becomes dead when the horn sounds. Award two or three FTs depending upon the type of FG attempt. The official's whistle has no bearing on the play except to indicate that a Foul or Violation has occured.

MTD, Sr.

[paxsonref]

where does the post talk about the horn being involved? It is about a called foul on the release of a shot, correct?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by paxsonref

This is incorrect. It does not matter when the foul occurs, it matters when the foul is CALLED. If the whistle has not blown, a foul has not happened, therefore when this play happens, if its in the air when the whistle blows, count it, regardless of when the illegal contact started.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I am not sure what you are trying to say, but:

If the contact occured before the release and then the horn sounds before the release of the ball, the ball becomes dead when the horn sounds. Award two or three FTs depending upon the type of FG attempt. The official's whistle has no bearing on the play except to indicate that a Foul or Violation has occured.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by paxsonref

where does the post talk about the horn being involved? It is about a called foul on the release of a shot, correct?

I got ahead of myself and forgot that the OP was not an End of Period scenario. But your statement, which I have highlighted in red is incorrect. As I stated in my OP is that the whistle is a signal to let everybody know that a Foul or Violation has occured. The whistle is always sounded after the fact.

A1 attempts a 3-point FG. If: a) A5 commits a foul before A1 releases the ball A5's foul causes the ball to become Dead immediately, even if the official does not sound his whistle until after A1 releases the ball; and b) if A5 commits a foul after A1 releases the ball, the ball remains Live until the shot is successful or unsuccessful even when the official sounds his whistle.

MTD, Sr.

[Kansas Ref]

In all seriousness, lol @ your partner " waving arms like a windmill" to wipe the basket.

[BatteryPowered]

First...to MD Longhorn,

The only way I have any idea about what my partner called was due to the initial report after his whistle and actions. While you are correct that I did not see the foul he called because I was on the three-point shooter it is equally true that he should have no idea if the shot should have counted because he should have (apparently was) focused on the action in the lane. I know for a fact that I heard his whistle a split second before the arching shot hit the net. I usually do not have a count during the flight of a shot so I do not know how long it was after the shot...my guess is a second or two.

As I said, he was so emphatic and demonstrative that, given the lop sided nature of the game, I chose not to go to him and discuss it then. It everyone wants to get onto me for that failing I will take it. If it would have been a tight game I would have certainly gone to him when everything unfolded.

This guy didn't like to talk...period. Having a pre-game was like pulling teeth. If he said 10 words I would be surprised. After a couple of points and it being obvious he didn't want to contribute I approached it by saying the approach I normally take (talking to the players early, strictly calling the hands on the dribbler from the start, etc.). He just nodded.

Afterwards I said I wanted to discuss the play and he said "Nothing to discuss." I asked a couple of questions about the situation in theory (don't remember the exact wording) and he just kept changing clothes without acknowledging my presence.

Tonight I will look in the books (rule and case) to see exactly when the ball would have become dead and study the relevant examples.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by BatteryPowered

Tonight I will look in the books (rule and case) to see exactly when the ball would have become dead and study the relevant examples.

Basketball Fundamentals:

3. A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through unless canceled by a throw-in violation or a player-control foul.

16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

ART. 7

The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:

A foul, other than player-control or team-control, occurs (see exceptions a, b and c below).

ART. 9

The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:

A violation, as in Rule 9, Sections 2 through 13, occurs (see exception d below).

EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:

a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.

b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.

c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in flight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket.

d. Article 9 as in 9-3-3 or 9-13-1, occurs by an opponent.

NOTE: If A1's try or tap is legally touched in flight, the goal counts if made, if the period ends before or after the legal touching. If the touching is interference or goaltending by A, no points are scored. If B violates, the points are awarded - either two or three depending on whether it was a two or three-point try or tap.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BatteryPowered

First...to MD Longhorn,

The only way I have any idea about what my partner called was due to the initial report after his whistle and actions. While you are correct that I did not see the foul he called because I was on the three-point shooter it is equally true that he should have no idea if the shot should have counted because he should have (apparently was) focused on the action in the lane. I know for a fact that I heard his whistle a split second before the arching shot hit the net. I usually do not have a count during the flight of a shot so I do not know how long it was after the shot...my guess is a second or two.

As I said, he was so emphatic and demonstrative that, given the lop sided nature of the game, I chose not to go to him and discuss it then. It everyone wants to get onto me for that failing I will take it. If it would have been a tight game I would have certainly gone to him when everything unfolded.

This guy didn't like to talk...period. Having a pre-game was like pulling teeth. If he said 10 words I would be surprised. After a couple of points and it being obvious he didn't want to contribute I approached it by saying the approach I normally take (talking to the players early, strictly calling the hands on the dribbler from the start, etc.). He just nodded.

Afterwards I said I wanted to discuss the play and he said "Nothing to discuss." I asked a couple of questions about the situation in theory (don't remember the exact wording) and he just kept changing clothes without acknowledging my presence.

Tonight I will look in the books (rule and case) to see exactly when the ball would have become dead and study the relevant examples.

I would have handled the entire situation just as you did.
Let him make this determination as he is the one who called the foul and he didn't want any input from you about anything over the course of the entire game.
There is a reason that your assignor has him working blow-out girls games. Unfortunate that you had to deal with him as a partner. No fun.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by paxsonref

This is incorrect. It does not matter when the foul occurs, it matters when the foul is CALLED. If the whistle has not blown, a foul has not happened, therefore when this play happens, if its in the air when the whistle blows, count it, regardless of when the illegal contact started.

Disagree. It's when the foul happens.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by paxsonref

This is incorrect. It does not matter when the foul occurs, it matters when the foul is CALLED. If the whistle has not blown, a foul has not happened, therefore when this play happens, if its in the air when the whistle blows, count it, regardless of when the illegal contact started.

I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. The ball is dead when the foul occurs, not when it is called.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by paxsonref

This is incorrect. It does not matter when the foul occurs, it matters when the foul is CALLED. If the whistle has not blown, a foul has not happened, therefore when this play happens, if its in the air when the whistle blows, count it, regardless of when the illegal contact started.

Not true. You should consult some of the RULES FUNDAMENTALS on page 73.

#16 "The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead)."

#3 "A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through unless canceled by a throw-in violation or a player-control foul."

#13 "A live-ball foul by the offense (team in control or last in control if the ball is loose), or the expiration of time for a quarter or extra period, causes the ball to become dead immediately, unless the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. The ball also becomes dead when a player-control foul occurs.

So it is the moment of the foul that makes the ball dead, not the when the whistle blows. If the try is not yet in flight at the time of the foul, then the ball would become dead and there would be no goal as a dead ball, not a live ball, entered the basket.