End of Game Situation Quiz

[crosscountry55]

Two-person Crew

Situation: Team A trails 51-53 with 6.5 seconds left in the fourth quarter. Team A advances the ball and A1 gets off a 3-pointer from the corner with approximately 2.5 seconds left. It is unsuccessful, but A2 gets a rebound underneath and sends up a put-back just as time expires. In the T's judgment A2 released the ball before time expired, but observing the shot is unsuccessful, he blows his whistle and moves toward the play to waive off any further action. The clock shows 0.0 and the horn has sounded.

As T moves toward the play, he observes the L with a closed fist indicating a foul on the put-back shot.

What are the possible outcomes here?

[bob jenkins]

1) Foul occurred before time expired or on an airborne shooter: A2 shoots 2 shots, with no one on the line (if the first FT is unsuccessful, the game is over)

2) Foul occurred after the ball became dead: Ignore unless F or I.

(Assuming FED rules, then you can't (well, shouldn't) say that any time after the foul and before the buzzer was a timer's mistake, and you shouldn't put time back on the clock. IAABO might have a different answer. )

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

1) Foul occurred before time expired or on an airborne shooter: A2 shoots 2 shots, with no one on the line (if the first FT is unsuccessful, the game is over)

2) Foul occurred after the ball became dead: Ignore unless F or I.

(Assuming FED rules, then you can't (well, shouldn't) say that any time after the foul and before the buzzer was a timer's mistake, and you shouldn't put time back on the clock. IAABO might have a different answer. )

IAABO does not write the Rules. Follow NFHS Rules determine what to do.

MTD, Sr.

[crosscountry55]

Nice! Referring to Bob's post, #1 is exactly what we had.

So...we invoked Rule 5-6-2 Exception 3 as well as Case Play 5.6.2 Situation E.

Funny thing was, I had several critiques that stated there could not be a foul in that situation without time on the clock; they thought I should have put some time back on the clock. I was the T, and had I had definite knowledge by glancing at the clock that the timer was clearly too slow in stopping the clock, I could put that time back on. But this was bang-bang and I was watching the release of the ball while listening for the horn; the timer simply couldn't react quickly enough.

If this were NCAA without monitor, same rules apply. With monitor, we can look for the exact time of the foul and put that time back on, or, if it was after 0.0 and the ball had not yet been released, game over.

By the way, for what it's worth, A2 missed the first free throw with the lane cleared. Game over.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Funny thing was, I had several critiques that stated there could not be a foul in that situation without time on the clock; they thought I should have put some time back on the clock.

. . . that's what happens when folks"learn" the rules from watching TV . . .

[La Rikardo]

Even if A2 was fouled after the buzzer, you could still have a shooting foul if A2 was an airborne shooter. Pretty sure this is also the case in NCAA, perhaps the only case where, with the benefit of checking time on a monitor, you'd be shooting free throws for a personal foul with no time left in the second half.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by La Rikardo

Even if A2 was fouled after the buzzer, you could still have a shooting foul if A2 was an airborne shooter. Pretty sure this is also the case in NCAA, perhaps the only case where, with the benefit of checking time on a monitor, you'd be shooting free throws for a personal foul with no time left in the second half.

Under all Rules sets (NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, FIBA, and NBA/WNBA, the answer is yes and no.

If A2,while airborne, is still in control of the ball when the buzzer sounds to end the period and then is "fouled" by B2, there is no foul. If A2 releases the ball prior to the buzzers sounds to end the period, then you can have foul by B2 against A2.

It is past my bedtime so Good Night all.

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Under all Rules sets (NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, FIBA, and NBA/WNBA, the answer is yes and no.

If A2,while airborne, is still in control of the ball when the buzzer sounds to end the period and then is "fouled" by B2, there is no foul. If A2 releases the ball prior to the buzzers sounds to end the period, then you can have foul by B2 against A2.

It is past my bedtime so Good Night all.

MTD, Sr.

Mark --

He used the term "airborne shooter." By definition (FED and NCAW, at least), that already means that the ball has been released on a try. The first part of your explanation, while correct, does not apply.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by La Rikardo

Even if A2 was fouled after the buzzer, you could still have a shooting foul if A2 was an airborne shooter. Pretty sure this is also the case in NCAA, perhaps the only case where, with the benefit of checking time on a monitor, you'd be shooting free throws for a personal foul with no time left in the second half.

I was pondering this myself, and indeed, under NCAA rules with a monitor, I believe you are correct; this is the only way you'd be shooting free throws for a personal foul with no time left in the second half.

On a separate note, while I was pondering this, I remembered something in the rules differences chart at the back of the NFHS rulebook about there being "no rule" for airborne shooter under NCAAM. Upon further review, this only applies to player control fouls, i.e. an airborne shooter cannot be charged with a PCF under NCAAM like he/she can be under NFHS/NCAAW. The concept of an airborne shooter being fouled by a defender (i.e. in the act of shooting) is still perfectly valid in NCAAM.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Mark --

He used the term "airborne shooter." By definition (FED and NCAW, at least), that already means that the ball has been released on a try. The first part of your explanation, while correct, does not apply.

I told you it was past my bedtime, .

MTD, Sr.

[Sharpshooternes]

Correct me if I am wrong but can the following situation also occur?
A1 jumps for a shot and is fouled by B1. Time then expires and A1 releases the shot which goes n or doesn't. Doesn't really matter either way. In this case you have a shooting foul, the shot if made is wiped as it was late. Two or three shots depending on spot of foul with No time on clock and lane cleared.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

A1 jumps for a shot and is fouled by B1. Time then expires

When should the clock have stopped?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Correct me if I am wrong but can the following situation also occur?
A1 jumps for a shot and is fouled by B1. Time then expires and A1 releases the shot which goes n or doesn't. Doesn't really matter either way. In this case you have a shooting foul, the shot if made is wiped as it was late. Two or three shots depending on spot of foul with No time on clock and lane cleared.

Correct in HS or college games w/o monitor. (assuming the FTs might affect the outcome)

Incorrect in college games w/ monitor.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Correct me if I am wrong but can the following situation also occur?
A1 jumps for a shot and is fouled by B1. Time then expires and A1 releases the shot which goes n or doesn't. Doesn't really matter either way. In this case you have a shooting foul, the shot if made is wiped as it was late. Two or three shots depending on spot of foul with No time on clock and lane cleared.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Correct in HS or college games w/o monitor. (assuming the FTs might affect the outcome)

Incorrect in college games w/ monitor.

As Bob notes, in a college game with a monitor the exact time of the foul would be put back on the clock and the goal would count if successful.