Throw in Violation and location

[The_Rookie]

A1 has a throw-in along the endline. A1 rolls ball and runs after it and is the first to touch it in bounds near the division line.

Ruling: Throw-in Violation since A1 as the thrower was first to touch ball in bounds...

Question: Would throw in be where the violation occured which is when A1 touched ball near division line? or on end line where throw in originated?

NFHS Rules..

[JRutledge]

The throw-in would be where the violation took place.

But the problem is that is not a violation. There was no team control in the front court. And touching the ball does not mean you have team control in the front court.

Peace

[The_Rookie]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The throw-in would be where the violation took place.

But the problem is that is not a violation. There was no team control in the front court. And touching the ball does not mean you have team control in the front court.

Peace

JRut..Let me rephrase.. A1 is on the endline for a throw in A's backcourt...A1 rolls the ball and is first person to A) touch the ball in bounds or b) first person to get control of ball in bounds? Both A and B take place near Divison line in BC

2 Questions:

1) Do we have a violation in both A and B?

2) Where would the throw in take place on a Violation?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

JRut..Let me rephrase.. A1 is on the endline for a throw in A's backcourt...A1 rolls the ball and is first person to A) touch the ball in bounds or b) first person to get control of ball in bounds? Both A and B take place near Divison line in BC

2 Questions:

1) Do we have a violation in both A and B?

2) Where would the throw in take place on a Violation?

1) No. Touching the ball is not having team control in the FC. A throw-in is not having possession in the FC. You do not have TC until there is possession in the FC. If that was the case you would have a 10 second count start from the throw-in.

This is why can fumble or mishandle a throw in and go and get it.

Part of the problem is there is an interpretation that contradicts the rule out of the casebook, but it is clear none of the rules ever changed in this area. This is clearer in 9.9.1 Sit D.

Peace

[Raymond]

I'm bringing it back to the throw-in spot as if he had thrown it directly out of bounds, or thrown it through the basket.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

2 Questions:
1) Do we have a violation in both A and B?
2) Where would the throw in take place on a Violation?

9-2-6: The thrown ball shall not touch the thrower in the court before it touches or is touched by another player.

If the "roll" started in the OOB area, that violates 9-2-2: "The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court..."

Cf. PENALTY: (Section 2) The ball becomes dead when the violation...occurs. Following a violation, the ball is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in at the original throw-in spot."

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

1) No. Touching the ball is not having team control in the FC. A throw-in is not having possession in the FC. You do not have TC until there is possession in the FC. If that was the case you would have a 10 second count start from the throw-in.

This is why can fumble or mishandle a throw in and go and get it.

Part of the problem is there is an interpretation that contradicts the rule out of the casebook, but it is clear none of the rules ever changed in this area. This is clearer in 9.9.1 Sit D.

Peace

Umm, I think you're not understanding the question. You're answering it as if the OP is saying it's a backcourt violation. That is not the case. The OP is simply saying that the player throwing in the ball can not be the first player to touch it in bounds... which I'm pretty sure is correct.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

A1 has a throw-in along the endline. A1 rolls ball and runs after it and is the first to touch it in bounds near the division line.

Ruling: Throw-in Violation since A1 as the thrower was first to touch ball in bounds...

Question: Would throw in be where the violation occured which is when A1 touched ball near division line? or on end line where throw in originated?

NFHS Rules..

What was the violation? (rhetorical question)

Answer that and you'll know where the throw-in spot should be.

Or, you could check teh case book for this exact play.

[The_Rookie]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

What was the violation? (rhetorical question)

Answer that and you'll know where the throw-in spot should be.

.

What confused me was the fact that the touch took place near division line..and in my mind that is when violation took place..I was applying the same concept of a BC violation..where the"Touch" took place is where spot of throw in is located

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

What confused me was the fact that the touch took place near division line..and in my mind that is when violation took place..I was applying the same concept of a BC violation..where the"Touch" took place is where spot of throw in is located

Now, in Jeopardy style, make up a question that would fit Jeff's answer since he clearly didn't understand the question....twice.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

What confused me was the fact that the touch took place near division line..and in my mind that is when violation took place..

You're not the only one (or the last one) to get confused by this.

It's not a violation until the touch, but the touch itself isn't the violation.

[HokiePaul]

This makes me think of a slightly different (and probably more likely) scenario where there would be a question about where the throw in should be from.

1) Endline throw in by A1 travels to mid-court and is first touched by A2 who is standing out of bounds (standing with a foot touching the sideline).

Two rules seem to conflict:

9-2-11: No teammate of the thrower shall be out of bounds after the designated-spot throw in begins -- this appears to have been violated as A2 was out of bounds after the throw in began, and would suggest that B's throw in is on the endline at the original throw-in spot.

4-42-5: The throw-in ends when: b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out of bounds -- this appears to suggest that the throw in ends with the touch and the throw in for B would be at the sideline spot by the out of bounds violation. But if A was out of bounds for the touch, then they must have been out of bounds after the throw in began (and before it ended), which violates 9-2-11.

So... would you consider this a throw-in violation like the OP and bring the ball back to the original spot for B's throw-in, or is this different?

[HokiePaul]

Example of OP -- Officials didn't notice

[bob jenkins]

It's not worded very well, but the throw-in is legal, followed immediately by an OOB violation.

I think there's a specific case on that as well.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

This makes me think of a slightly different (and probably more likely) scenario where there would be a question about where the throw in should be from.

1) Endline throw in by A1 travels to mid-court and is first touched by A2 who is standing out of bounds (standing with a foot touching the sideline).

Two rules seem to conflict:

9-2-11: No teammate of the thrower shall be out of bounds after the designated-spot throw in begins -- this appears to have been violated as A2 was out of bounds after the throw in began, and would suggest that B's throw in is on the endline at the original throw-in spot.

4-42-5: The throw-in ends when: b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out of bounds -- this appears to suggest that the throw in ends with the touch and the throw in for B would be at the sideline spot by the out of bounds violation. But if A was out of bounds for the touch, then they must have been out of bounds after the throw in began (and before it ended), which violates 9-2-11.

So... would you consider this a throw-in violation like the OP and bring the ball back to the original spot for B's throw-in, or is this different?

I guess you'd have to determine which happened first.

Did A2 touch the ball and then step out of bounds, which would result in a throw-in for Team B on the endline.

Or did A2 step out of bounds and then touch the ball, giving Team B a throw-in on the endline.

Reminds me of the "tie goes to the runner" call in baseball. There's no such thing... one happened before the other, and it's your responsibility to figure out which.