Throw in Violation and location

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

A1 has a throw-in along the endline. A1 rolls ball and runs after it and is the first to touch it in bounds near the division line.

Ruling: Throw-in Violation since A1 as the thrower was first to touch ball in bounds...

Question: Would throw in be where the violation occured which is when A1 touched ball near division line? or on end line where throw in originated?

NFHS Rules..

What was the violation? (rhetorical question)

Answer that and you'll know where the throw-in spot should be.

Or, you could check teh case book for this exact play.

[The_Rookie]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

What was the violation? (rhetorical question)

Answer that and you'll know where the throw-in spot should be.

.

What confused me was the fact that the touch took place near division line..and in my mind that is when violation took place..I was applying the same concept of a BC violation..where the"Touch" took place is where spot of throw in is located

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

What confused me was the fact that the touch took place near division line..and in my mind that is when violation took place..I was applying the same concept of a BC violation..where the"Touch" took place is where spot of throw in is located

Now, in Jeopardy style, make up a question that would fit Jeff's answer since he clearly didn't understand the question....twice.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by The_Rookie

What confused me was the fact that the touch took place near division line..and in my mind that is when violation took place..

You're not the only one (or the last one) to get confused by this.

It's not a violation until the touch, but the touch itself isn't the violation.

[HokiePaul]

This makes me think of a slightly different (and probably more likely) scenario where there would be a question about where the throw in should be from.

1) Endline throw in by A1 travels to mid-court and is first touched by A2 who is standing out of bounds (standing with a foot touching the sideline).

Two rules seem to conflict:

9-2-11: No teammate of the thrower shall be out of bounds after the designated-spot throw in begins -- this appears to have been violated as A2 was out of bounds after the throw in began, and would suggest that B's throw in is on the endline at the original throw-in spot.

4-42-5: The throw-in ends when: b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out of bounds -- this appears to suggest that the throw in ends with the touch and the throw in for B would be at the sideline spot by the out of bounds violation. But if A was out of bounds for the touch, then they must have been out of bounds after the throw in began (and before it ended), which violates 9-2-11.

So... would you consider this a throw-in violation like the OP and bring the ball back to the original spot for B's throw-in, or is this different?

[HokiePaul]

Example of OP -- Officials didn't notice

[bob jenkins]

It's not worded very well, but the throw-in is legal, followed immediately by an OOB violation.

I think there's a specific case on that as well.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

This makes me think of a slightly different (and probably more likely) scenario where there would be a question about where the throw in should be from.

1) Endline throw in by A1 travels to mid-court and is first touched by A2 who is standing out of bounds (standing with a foot touching the sideline).

Two rules seem to conflict:

9-2-11: No teammate of the thrower shall be out of bounds after the designated-spot throw in begins -- this appears to have been violated as A2 was out of bounds after the throw in began, and would suggest that B's throw in is on the endline at the original throw-in spot.

4-42-5: The throw-in ends when: b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out of bounds -- this appears to suggest that the throw in ends with the touch and the throw in for B would be at the sideline spot by the out of bounds violation. But if A was out of bounds for the touch, then they must have been out of bounds after the throw in began (and before it ended), which violates 9-2-11.

So... would you consider this a throw-in violation like the OP and bring the ball back to the original spot for B's throw-in, or is this different?

I guess you'd have to determine which happened first.

Did A2 touch the ball and then step out of bounds, which would result in a throw-in for Team B on the endline.

Or did A2 step out of bounds and then touch the ball, giving Team B a throw-in on the endline.

Reminds me of the "tie goes to the runner" call in baseball. There's no such thing... one happened before the other, and it's your responsibility to figure out which.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I guess you'd have to determine which happened first.

Did A2 touch the ball and then step out of bounds, which would result in a throw-in for Team B on the endline.

Or did A2 step out of bounds and then touch the ball, giving Team B a throw-in on the endline.

...

You have the same answer for both.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You have the same answer for both.

Oops. It should read like this...

Did A2 touch the ball and then step out of bounds, which would result in a throw-in for Team B on the sideline.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

1) Endline throw in by A1 travels to mid-court and is first touched by A2 who is standing out of bounds (standing with a foot touching the sideline).

Two rules seem to conflict:

9-2-11: No teammate of the thrower shall be out of bounds after the designated-spot throw in begins -- this appears to have been violated as A2 was out of bounds after the throw in began, and would suggest that B's throw in is on the endline at the original throw-in spot.

4-42-5: The throw-in ends when: b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out of bounds -- this appears to suggest that the throw in ends with the touch and the throw in for B would be at the sideline spot by the out of bounds violation. But if A was out of bounds for the touch, then they must have been out of bounds after the throw in began (and before it ended), which violates 9-2-11.

So... would you consider this a throw-in violation and bring the ball back to the original spot for B's throw-in, or is this different?

Many years ago, if the throwin was first touched by B2, who is standing out of bounds, it would be considered a throwin violation by Team A, and Team B would get the ball back at the original spot of the throwin.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Many years ago, if the throwin was first touched by B2, who is standing out of bounds, it would be considered a throwin violation by Team A, and Team B would get the ball back at the original spot of the throwin.

I am not sure if that was the way it was or that was the way some were interpreting it to be.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I am not sure if that was the way it was or that was the way some were interpreting it to be.

The way I remember it, it must have been quietly changed because the rule said as much, then they quietly changed it back to where it is now.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I am not sure if that was the way it was or that was the way some were interpreting it to be.

That was the way it was. Back then, the situation was treated the same as if the throwin ball hit an out of bounds wall (untouched by anybody inbounds). It was a casebook play interpretation. There was no distinction between a player out of bounds, and an object out of bounds, for this specific situation.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Freddy

9-2-6: The thrown ball shall not touch the thrower in the court before it touches or is touched by another player.

If the "roll" started in the OOB area, that violates 9-2-2: "The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court..."

Cf. PENALTY: (Section 2) The ball becomes dead when the violation...occurs. Following a violation, the ball is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in at the original throw-in spot."

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Many years ago, if the throwin was first touched by B2, who is standing out of bounds, it would be considered a throwin violation by Team A, and Team B would get the ball back at the original spot of the throwin.

BillyMac:

Yes I do. Fortunately it was a short lived rule.

MTD, Sr.