Throw In - Ball at disposal of a player

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Rich1

By rule, after a made basket the throw in begins when two things happen - the ball is available to the player and the ref starts the count. There is no mention in the rules about allowing the player to step out of bounds first. This is different than other throw ins because we handle the ball.

Now, in practice, I give a player time to step out if they grab the ball and are not delay in moving out of bounds. I start the count if they do not secure the ball and head that way with purpose.

Using some of the logic cited earlier, then it could be argued that we shouldn't place the ball on the floor and begin a count during the delay of game procedure because if the player isn't out of bounds then we can't start the throw in. Yes, its an absurd stretch, but serves to illustrate that throw ins occur under different circumstances and are officiated that way. (And yes I know the "ROP" procedure is rule, I'm just making a point)

The answer to the question in the OP is you start the count when in your judgement you feel the team has access to the ball and has had time to pick it up and step out of bounds. You do not need to wait until they actually do so.

No it isn't. There is no mention in the rules that we wait for a player to step out of bounds even when handing or bouncing the ball to the thrower either, for that matter. We wait to start the throw-in and throw-in count in all non-delayed throw-in situations until the thrower is out of bounds because that is the way a throw-in is defined in 4-42-2. If it is acceptable to say the ball is at "disposal" and start the throw-in and count when a player immediately catches the ball in bounds after a made basket (even though not delaying) then it should also be acceptable following a time out to bounce the ball to the thrower as he/she is coming across the court and then start the count as soon as he/she possesses the ball since there is no rule that says we must wait until the thrower is out of bounds.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

2006-07 SITUATION 9: With less than one minute to play in the fourth quarter, Team A scores a field goal to tie the game. B1, standing under the basket after the score, secures the ball and begins heading to the end line for the ensuing throw-in. A1 requests and is granted a time-out. RULING: Legal procedure. Team A may request and be granted a time-out until the ensuing throw-in begins. The throw-in does not begin until B1 has the ball at his/her disposal and the official has begun the five-second count.

I also seem to recall that "out of bounds" was part of the "disposal" definition a few years ago. I don't have my attic handy to check.

Great citation Bob. This all but spells out that the count doesn't start and the throw-in doesn't begin until B1 is at least OOB since it says that A1 can still have their timeout while B1 is heading towards OOB....even with no delay.

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

2006-07 SITUATION 9: With less than one minute to play in the fourth quarter, Team A scores a field goal to tie the game. B1, standing under the basket after the score, secures the ball and begins heading to the end line for the ensuing throw-in. A1 requests and is granted a time-out. RULING: Legal procedure. Team A may request and be granted a time-out until the ensuing throw-in begins. The throw-in does not begin until B1 has the ball at his/her disposal and the official has begun the five-second count.

I also seem to recall that "out of bounds" was part of the "disposal" definition a few years ago. I don't have my attic handy to check.

Bob - I apologize for re-hashing a month old post, but did u ever find this definition? That 5th grade girls game I was watching, the ref would start the count as soon as the ball went through the hoop. The inbounding team wasn't delaying. I was watching the ref and she was usually at 2 by the time the inbounder got out of bounds. The defense was pressing, so there were about three or four "quick" 5-second calls.

I know at the Varsity level the officials wait until the player is out-of-bounds as long as no one is delaying. And, I believe that to be the correct interpretation, but I certainly can't point to a rulebook or casebook to verify.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

Bob - I apologize for re-hashing a month old post, but did u ever find this definition?

I didn't; nor did I look.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

Bob - I apologize for re-hashing a month old post, but did u ever find this definition? That 5th grade girls game I was watching, the ref would start the count as soon as the ball went through the hoop. The inbounding team wasn't delaying. I was watching the ref and she was usually at 2 by the time the inbounder got out of bounds. The defense was pressing, so there were about three or four "quick" 5-second calls.

I know at the Varsity level the officials wait until the player is out-of-bounds as long as no one is delaying. And, I believe that to be the correct interpretation, but I certainly can't point to a rulebook or casebook to verify.

For me, it's about the intent of the rule. The rule is that the team has 5 seconds to complete the throw in, so why someone would want to start the count before the throw in can even be legally completed is beyond me. Well, other than to get an extra few "gotcha" calls in a 5th grade girls game.

This is the danger of people reading the rules on their own and discovering things they didn't know. This guy read the rules, and saw "at the disposal" defined, in part, by "available" and didn't take into account the context and intent.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

... why someone would want to start the count before the throw in can even be legally completed is beyond me.

Great point. Unless they are delaying, start the count when they can legally throw it in. They can't legally throw it in when they are still inbounds.

[Rob1968]

"The Basketball Handbook, p.71, TABLE 3-1: Time Factors
Time Allowed for: 10. Throw-in from out of bounds 5 sec."

(Thus, if the thrower-in is not out of bounds, the 5 second count must not be started. If it is started before the thrower-in is out of bounds, the 5 second count cannot be a full/valid allotment.)

4-42-1 . . . The thrower is the player who attempts to make a throw-in.
4-42-2 . . . A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds.
4-42-3 . . . The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it. (that is, entitled to make the throw-in.)
4-42-4 . . .The throw-in count ends when the ball is released by the thrower so the passed ball goes directly into the court.

9-2-4 . . .Once the throw-in starts, the ball shall be released on a pass directly into the court before five seconds have elapsed.

(Thus, the throw-in count can only be started when it is possible for the thrower to "pass the ball directly into the court," which cannot be done from a position in the court. (It is impossible to make a throw-in from in-bounds.)

Provision allowing the administering/covering official to start the count, in the event of appreciable delay on the part of the throw-in team making a player available to attempt the throw-in, appears in the OFFICIALS MANUAL 2.2.2 Throw-ins A. General Provisions . . .

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by Adam

For me, it's about the intent of the rule. The rule is that the team has 5 seconds to complete the throw in, so why someone would want to start the count before the throw in can even be legally completed is beyond me. Well, other than to get an extra few "gotcha" calls in a 5th grade girls game.

This is the danger of people reading the rules on their own and discovering things they didn't know. This guy read the rules, and saw "at the disposal" defined, in part, by "available" and didn't take into account the context and intent.

Me thinks those doing 5th grade games don't tend to be the best trained (if at all) or most experienced (if at all) . . .

[Adam]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

Me thinks those doing 5th grade games don't tend to be the best trained (if at all) or most experienced (if at all) . . .

Right. Someone with a rule book but no training.