Throw In - Ball at disposal of a player

[Popey]

Study guide question:
Team A scores a goal, and B1 catches the ball before it hits the floor. As B1 is starting to step to the out-of-bounds side of the end line, A1 asks for a time-out. Should the time out request be granted?

When does the player actually have ball at his disposal and throw in starts? Is it when he has possession of ball, or does he also have to have possession and be on out-of-bounds side of end line?

[Adam]

At the risk of circular reasoning, think about it this way:
At what point would the official start his five second count?

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Popey

Study guide question:
Team A scores a goal, and B1 catches the ball before it hits the floor. As B1 is starting to step to the out-of-bounds side of the end line, A1 asks for a time-out. Should the time out request be granted?

When does the player actually have ball at his disposal and throw in starts? Is it when he has possession of ball, or does he also have to have possession and be on out-of-bounds side of end line?

Check out 4-4-7 d ... see if that answers your question.

[Popey]

Originally Posted by Adam

At the risk of circular reasoning, think about it this way:
At what point would the official start his five second count?

We discussed this and decided it might be at different points depending on speed of game. For a slow paced walk up and down court probably would not start count until thrower with ball on out of bound side. For a fast paced 2-3 passes down the court and laying up on other end game, would probably start count as soon as B1 catches ball out of basket.

Was just checking to see if any specific rule or case book scenario we didn't know about that would give a more definitive answer to this question.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Popey

We discussed this and decided it might be at different points depending on speed of game. For a slow paced walk up and down court probably would not start count until thrower with ball on out of bound side. For a fast paced 2-3 passes down the court and laying up on other end game, would probably start count as soon as B1 catches ball out of basket.
Was just checking to see if any specific rule or case book scenario we didn't know about that would give a more definitive answer to this question.

You would be wrong. The rule is the team has 5 seconds to release the throw in pass, how could you start the 5 second count before he is able to release that throw in pass?

In your OP, you grant the TO until B is legally able to execute a throw-in pass. "At the disposal" is meant to give the official leeway if B is taking more than a reasonable amount of time to get OOB and release a throw in.

[Popey]

Originally Posted by Adam

You would be wrong. The rule is the team has 5 seconds to release the throw in pass, how could you start the 5 second count before he is able to release that throw in pass?
In your OP, you grant the TO until B is legally able to execute a throw-in pass. "At the disposal" is meant to give the official leeway if B is taking more than a reasonable amount of time to get OOB and release a throw in.

Now that is the "Aha" description I was looking for! Thanks!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

You would be wrong. The rule is the team has 5 seconds to release the throw in pass, how could you start the 5 second count before he is able to release that throw in pass?

In your OP, you grant the TO until B is legally able to execute a throw-in pass. "At the disposal" is meant to give the official leeway if B is taking more than a reasonable amount of time to get OOB and release a throw in.

You just contradicted yourself.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

You would be wrong. The rule is the team has 5 seconds to release the throw in pass, how could you start the 5 second count before he is able to release that throw in pass?
In your OP, you grant the TO until B is legally able to execute a throw-in pass. "At the disposal" is meant to give the official leeway if B is taking more than a reasonable amount of time to get OOB and release a throw in.

See the below caseplay

4.42.3 SITUATION:

Following a goal by A1 the ball is: (a) inadvertently deflected under the bleachers; (b) bouncing on the court just outside the end line as B1 makes his/her way toward the ball; or (c) lying on the court just outside the end line as B1 delays the inbound by getting instruction from his/her coach. When does the throw-in begin and the ball become live?

RULING: In (a), the official shall signal for the clock to be stopped. The throw-in begins and the ball becomes live when it is at the disposal of Team B. In (b) and (c), the throw-in begins and the ball becomes live when it is available to B1 and the official begins the throw-in count. In (c), the throw-in count begins when the official determines B1 has had ample time to secure the ball; it need not be in B1's possession. (4-4-7d)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You just contradicted yourself.

His first statement is the general rule. The second is the exception to that generality to prevent a team from taking advantage. The second part is (probably) not applicable to the OP (esp. if the OP was the "quick throw-in" part of the thread).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

His first statement is the general rule. The second is the exception to that generality to prevent a team from taking advantage. The second part is (probably) not applicable to the OP (esp. if the OP was the "quick throw-in" part of the thread).

Exactly, unless there's an appreciable delay by B, I'm never starting my count prior to a player from B out of bounds WITH the ball. The option is there, but if B is doing a quick break offense off of opponents' baskets, this isn't going to come into play. If I is able to get a TO requested before B gets his foot planted OOB, I'm granting the TO.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You just contradicted yourself.

Not really.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Adam

You would be wrong. The rule is the team has 5 seconds to release the throw in pass, how could you start the 5 second count before he is able to release that throw in pass?

In your OP, you grant the TO until B is legally able to execute a throw-in pass. "At the disposal" is meant to give the official leeway if B is taking more than a reasonable amount of time to get OOB and release a throw in.

The OP states that "For a fast paced 2-3 passes down the court and laying up on other end game, would probably start count as soon as B1 catches ball out of basket." This isn't "wrong" by rule. It is actually consistent with the rule. It is wrong only by your interpretation of the rule, which is that you would not start your count until the player is out of bounds.

I'm not disagreeing with your interpretation ... but I disagree with your assessment that the individual would be wrong. Every part of the suggested officials action is consistent with 4-4-7 -- and if the official starts his count before the player gets out of bounds, then the ball is at the thrower's disposal and the offical should not grant the timeout.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

The OP states that "For a fast paced 2-3 passes down the court and laying up on other end game, would probably start count as soon as B1 catches ball out of basket." This isn't "wrong" by rule. It is actually consistent with the rule. It is wrong only by your interpretation of the rule, which is that you would not start your count until the player is out of bounds.

I'm not disagreeing with your interpretation ... but I disagree with your assessment that the individual would be wrong. Every part of the suggested officials action is consistent with 4-4-7 -- and if the official starts his count before the player gets out of bounds, then the ball is at the thrower's disposal and the offical should not grant the timeout.

The rule is that the team has 5 seconds to complete the throw in, I don't see how you can start the 5 second count before they can even legally make the throw in (unless they're delaying the process, which is not applicable to this situation).

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

The rule is that the team has 5 seconds to complete the throw in, I don't see how you can start the 5 second count before they can even legally make the throw in (unless they're delaying the process, which is not applicable to this situation).

In that type of game (run-n-gun) it actually benefits the throw-in team, because it prevents the opponent from calling a time-out to slow down the break. And by rule he wouldn't be wrong.

4-4-7 d. Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In that type of game (run-n-gun) it actually benefits the throw-in team, because it prevents the opponent from calling a time-out to slow down the break. And by rule he wouldn't be wrong.

4-4-7 d. Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

I said this previously, but my understanding is that the "available to a player" is what we use to start the count if Jr. is just standing there watching it bounce. I see that you're the rule doesn't specify this, and I don't disagree, but it seems to me this is where "intent" of the rule comes into play. The intent of the 5 second rule is not to prevent B from getting a quick TO just because A5 grabs the ball out on its way out of the net.

The 5 second rule is designed as a restriction on the offense, not the defense.