Throw In - Ball at disposal of a player

[Popey]

Study guide question:
Team A scores a goal, and B1 catches the ball before it hits the floor. As B1 is starting to step to the out-of-bounds side of the end line, A1 asks for a time-out. Should the time out request be granted?

When does the player actually have ball at his disposal and throw in starts? Is it when he has possession of ball, or does he also have to have possession and be on out-of-bounds side of end line?

[Adam]

At the risk of circular reasoning, think about it this way:
At what point would the official start his five second count?

[Popey]

Originally Posted by Adam

At the risk of circular reasoning, think about it this way:
At what point would the official start his five second count?

We discussed this and decided it might be at different points depending on speed of game. For a slow paced walk up and down court probably would not start count until thrower with ball on out of bound side. For a fast paced 2-3 passes down the court and laying up on other end game, would probably start count as soon as B1 catches ball out of basket.

Was just checking to see if any specific rule or case book scenario we didn't know about that would give a more definitive answer to this question.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Popey

We discussed this and decided it might be at different points depending on speed of game. For a slow paced walk up and down court probably would not start count until thrower with ball on out of bound side. For a fast paced 2-3 passes down the court and laying up on other end game, would probably start count as soon as B1 catches ball out of basket.
Was just checking to see if any specific rule or case book scenario we didn't know about that would give a more definitive answer to this question.

You would be wrong. The rule is the team has 5 seconds to release the throw in pass, how could you start the 5 second count before he is able to release that throw in pass?

In your OP, you grant the TO until B is legally able to execute a throw-in pass. "At the disposal" is meant to give the official leeway if B is taking more than a reasonable amount of time to get OOB and release a throw in.

[Popey]

Originally Posted by Adam

You would be wrong. The rule is the team has 5 seconds to release the throw in pass, how could you start the 5 second count before he is able to release that throw in pass?
In your OP, you grant the TO until B is legally able to execute a throw-in pass. "At the disposal" is meant to give the official leeway if B is taking more than a reasonable amount of time to get OOB and release a throw in.

Now that is the "Aha" description I was looking for! Thanks!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

You would be wrong. The rule is the team has 5 seconds to release the throw in pass, how could you start the 5 second count before he is able to release that throw in pass?

In your OP, you grant the TO until B is legally able to execute a throw-in pass. "At the disposal" is meant to give the official leeway if B is taking more than a reasonable amount of time to get OOB and release a throw in.

You just contradicted yourself.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You just contradicted yourself.

His first statement is the general rule. The second is the exception to that generality to prevent a team from taking advantage. The second part is (probably) not applicable to the OP (esp. if the OP was the "quick throw-in" part of the thread).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You just contradicted yourself.

Not really.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

You would be wrong. The rule is the team has 5 seconds to release the throw in pass, how could you start the 5 second count before he is able to release that throw in pass?
In your OP, you grant the TO until B is legally able to execute a throw-in pass. "At the disposal" is meant to give the official leeway if B is taking more than a reasonable amount of time to get OOB and release a throw in.

See the below caseplay

4.42.3 SITUATION:

Following a goal by A1 the ball is: (a) inadvertently deflected under the bleachers; (b) bouncing on the court just outside the end line as B1 makes his/her way toward the ball; or (c) lying on the court just outside the end line as B1 delays the inbound by getting instruction from his/her coach. When does the throw-in begin and the ball become live?

RULING: In (a), the official shall signal for the clock to be stopped. The throw-in begins and the ball becomes live when it is at the disposal of Team B. In (b) and (c), the throw-in begins and the ball becomes live when it is available to B1 and the official begins the throw-in count. In (c), the throw-in count begins when the official determines B1 has had ample time to secure the ball; it need not be in B1's possession. (4-4-7d)

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Adam

You would be wrong. The rule is the team has 5 seconds to release the throw in pass, how could you start the 5 second count before he is able to release that throw in pass?

In your OP, you grant the TO until B is legally able to execute a throw-in pass. "At the disposal" is meant to give the official leeway if B is taking more than a reasonable amount of time to get OOB and release a throw in.

The OP states that "For a fast paced 2-3 passes down the court and laying up on other end game, would probably start count as soon as B1 catches ball out of basket." This isn't "wrong" by rule. It is actually consistent with the rule. It is wrong only by your interpretation of the rule, which is that you would not start your count until the player is out of bounds.

I'm not disagreeing with your interpretation ... but I disagree with your assessment that the individual would be wrong. Every part of the suggested officials action is consistent with 4-4-7 -- and if the official starts his count before the player gets out of bounds, then the ball is at the thrower's disposal and the offical should not grant the timeout.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

The OP states that "For a fast paced 2-3 passes down the court and laying up on other end game, would probably start count as soon as B1 catches ball out of basket." This isn't "wrong" by rule. It is actually consistent with the rule. It is wrong only by your interpretation of the rule, which is that you would not start your count until the player is out of bounds.

I'm not disagreeing with your interpretation ... but I disagree with your assessment that the individual would be wrong. Every part of the suggested officials action is consistent with 4-4-7 -- and if the official starts his count before the player gets out of bounds, then the ball is at the thrower's disposal and the offical should not grant the timeout.

The rule is that the team has 5 seconds to complete the throw in, I don't see how you can start the 5 second count before they can even legally make the throw in (unless they're delaying the process, which is not applicable to this situation).

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Popey

We discussed this and decided it might be at different points depending on speed of game. For a slow paced walk up and down court probably would not start count until thrower with ball on out of bound side. For a fast paced 2-3 passes down the court and laying up on other end game, would probably start count as soon as B1 catches ball out of basket.

Was just checking to see if any specific rule or case book scenario we didn't know about that would give a more definitive answer to this question.

4-42-2 "A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds."

7-6-1 "The official shall hand or bounce the ball to the thrower for a throw-in unless the throw-in is from outside an end line following a successful goal."

9-2-4 "Once the throw-in starts, the ball shall be released . . . . .. . before five seconds have elapsed." We cannot take away any of the allotted five seconds by starting the count while the thrower is still in bounds.

I can find no rule basis for ever starting a throw-in and throw-in count before the thrower gets out of bounds except when the thrower delays taking the ball out of bounds as Adam says.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by billyu2

I can find no rule basis for ever starting a throw-in and throw-in count before the thrower gets out of bounds except when the thrower delays taking the ball out of bounds.

Agree. Nice citations.

[Rich1]

By rule, after a made basket the throw in begins when two things happen - the ball is available to the player and the ref starts the count. There is no mention in the rules about allowing the player to step out of bounds first. This is different than other throw ins because we handle the ball.

Now, in practice, I give a player time to step out if they grab the ball and are not delay in moving out of bounds. I start the count if they do not secure the ball and head that way with purpose.

Using some of the logic cited earlier, then it could be argued that we shouldn't place the ball on the floor and begin a count during the delay of game procedure because if the player isn't out of bounds then we can't start the throw in. Yes, its an absurd stretch, but serves to illustrate that throw ins occur under different circumstances and are officiated that way. (And yes I know the "ROP" procedure is rule, I'm just making a point)

The answer to the question in the OP is you start the count when in your judgement you feel the team has access to the ball and has had time to pick it up and step out of bounds. You do not need to wait until they actually do so.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Popey

Study guide question:
Team A scores a goal, and B1 catches the ball before it hits the floor. As B1 is starting to step to the out-of-bounds side of the end line, A1 asks for a time-out. Should the time out request be granted?

When does the player actually have ball at his disposal and throw in starts? Is it when he has possession of ball, or does he also have to have possession and be on out-of-bounds side of end line?

Check out 4-4-7 d ... see if that answers your question.