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-   -   Throw In - Ball at disposal of a player (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/98462-throw-ball-disposal-player.html)

Popey Thu Oct 02, 2014 01:17pm

Throw In - Ball at disposal of a player
 
Study guide question:
Team A scores a goal, and B1 catches the ball before it hits the floor. As B1 is starting to step to the out-of-bounds side of the end line, A1 asks for a time-out. Should the time out request be granted?

When does the player actually have ball at his disposal and throw in starts? Is it when he has possession of ball, or does he also have to have possession and be on out-of-bounds side of end line?

Adam Thu Oct 02, 2014 01:30pm

At the risk of circular reasoning, think about it this way:
At what point would the official start his five second count?

PG_Ref Thu Oct 02, 2014 01:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popey (Post 940981)
Study guide question:
Team A scores a goal, and B1 catches the ball before it hits the floor. As B1 is starting to step to the out-of-bounds side of the end line, A1 asks for a time-out. Should the time out request be granted?

When does the player actually have ball at his disposal and throw in starts? Is it when he has possession of ball, or does he also have to have possession and be on out-of-bounds side of end line?

Check out 4-4-7 d ... see if that answers your question.

Popey Thu Oct 02, 2014 01:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 940982)
At the risk of circular reasoning, think about it this way:
At what point would the official start his five second count?

We discussed this and decided it might be at different points depending on speed of game. For a slow paced walk up and down court probably would not start count until thrower with ball on out of bound side. For a fast paced 2-3 passes down the court and laying up on other end game, would probably start count as soon as B1 catches ball out of basket.

Was just checking to see if any specific rule or case book scenario we didn't know about that would give a more definitive answer to this question.

Adam Thu Oct 02, 2014 01:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popey (Post 940987)
We discussed this and decided it might be at different points depending on speed of game. For a slow paced walk up and down court probably would not start count until thrower with ball on out of bound side. For a fast paced 2-3 passes down the court and laying up on other end game, would probably start count as soon as B1 catches ball out of basket.
Was just checking to see if any specific rule or case book scenario we didn't know about that would give a more definitive answer to this question.

You would be wrong. The rule is the team has 5 seconds to release the throw in pass, how could you start the 5 second count before he is able to release that throw in pass?

In your OP, you grant the TO until B is legally able to execute a throw-in pass. "At the disposal" is meant to give the official leeway if B is taking more than a reasonable amount of time to get OOB and release a throw in.

Popey Thu Oct 02, 2014 02:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 940988)
You would be wrong. The rule is the team has 5 seconds to release the throw in pass, how could you start the 5 second count before he is able to release that throw in pass?
In your OP, you grant the TO until B is legally able to execute a throw-in pass. "At the disposal" is meant to give the official leeway if B is taking more than a reasonable amount of time to get OOB and release a throw in.

Now that is the "Aha" description I was looking for! Thanks!

Raymond Thu Oct 02, 2014 02:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 940988)
You would be wrong. The rule is the team has 5 seconds to release the throw in pass, how could you start the 5 second count before he is able to release that throw in pass?

In your OP, you grant the TO until B is legally able to execute a throw-in pass. "At the disposal" is meant to give the official leeway if B is taking more than a reasonable amount of time to get OOB and release a throw in.

You just contradicted yourself.

PG_Ref Thu Oct 02, 2014 02:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 940988)
You would be wrong. The rule is the team has 5 seconds to release the throw in pass, how could you start the 5 second count before he is able to release that throw in pass?
In your OP, you grant the TO until B is legally able to execute a throw-in pass. "At the disposal" is meant to give the official leeway if B is taking more than a reasonable amount of time to get OOB and release a throw in.

See the below caseplay

4.42.3 SITUATION:

Following a goal by A1 the ball is: (a) inadvertently deflected under the bleachers; (b) bouncing on the court just outside the end line as B1 makes his/her way toward the ball; or (c) lying on the court just outside the end line as B1 delays the inbound by getting instruction from his/her coach. When does the throw-in begin and the ball become live?

RULING: In (a), the official shall signal for the clock to be stopped. The throw-in begins and the ball becomes live when it is at the disposal of Team B. In (b) and (c), the throw-in begins and the ball becomes live when it is available to B1 and the official begins the throw-in count. In (c), the throw-in count begins when the official determines B1 has had ample time to secure the ball; it need not be in B1's possession. (4-4-7d)

bob jenkins Thu Oct 02, 2014 02:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 940992)
You just contradicted yourself.

His first statement is the general rule. The second is the exception to that generality to prevent a team from taking advantage. The second part is (probably) not applicable to the OP (esp. if the OP was the "quick throw-in" part of the thread).

Adam Thu Oct 02, 2014 03:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 940994)
His first statement is the general rule. The second is the exception to that generality to prevent a team from taking advantage. The second part is (probably) not applicable to the OP (esp. if the OP was the "quick throw-in" part of the thread).

Exactly, unless there's an appreciable delay by B, I'm never starting my count prior to a player from B out of bounds WITH the ball. The option is there, but if B is doing a quick break offense off of opponents' baskets, this isn't going to come into play. If I is able to get a TO requested before B gets his foot planted OOB, I'm granting the TO.

Camron Rust Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 940992)
You just contradicted yourself.

Not really.

HokiePaul Mon Oct 06, 2014 01:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 940988)
You would be wrong. The rule is the team has 5 seconds to release the throw in pass, how could you start the 5 second count before he is able to release that throw in pass?

In your OP, you grant the TO until B is legally able to execute a throw-in pass. "At the disposal" is meant to give the official leeway if B is taking more than a reasonable amount of time to get OOB and release a throw in.

The OP states that "For a fast paced 2-3 passes down the court and laying up on other end game, would probably start count as soon as B1 catches ball out of basket." This isn't "wrong" by rule. It is actually consistent with the rule. It is wrong only by your interpretation of the rule, which is that you would not start your count until the player is out of bounds.

I'm not disagreeing with your interpretation ... but I disagree with your assessment that the individual would be wrong. Every part of the suggested officials action is consistent with 4-4-7 -- and if the official starts his count before the player gets out of bounds, then the ball is at the thrower's disposal and the offical should not grant the timeout.

Adam Mon Oct 06, 2014 01:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 941144)
The OP states that "For a fast paced 2-3 passes down the court and laying up on other end game, would probably start count as soon as B1 catches ball out of basket." This isn't "wrong" by rule. It is actually consistent with the rule. It is wrong only by your interpretation of the rule, which is that you would not start your count until the player is out of bounds.

I'm not disagreeing with your interpretation ... but I disagree with your assessment that the individual would be wrong. Every part of the suggested officials action is consistent with 4-4-7 -- and if the official starts his count before the player gets out of bounds, then the ball is at the thrower's disposal and the offical should not grant the timeout.

The rule is that the team has 5 seconds to complete the throw in, I don't see how you can start the 5 second count before they can even legally make the throw in (unless they're delaying the process, which is not applicable to this situation).

Raymond Mon Oct 06, 2014 02:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 941146)
The rule is that the team has 5 seconds to complete the throw in, I don't see how you can start the 5 second count before they can even legally make the throw in (unless they're delaying the process, which is not applicable to this situation).

In that type of game (run-n-gun) it actually benefits the throw-in team, because it prevents the opponent from calling a time-out to slow down the break. And by rule he wouldn't be wrong.

4-4-7 d. Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

Adam Mon Oct 06, 2014 03:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 941151)
In that type of game (run-n-gun) it actually benefits the throw-in team, because it prevents the opponent from calling a time-out to slow down the break. And by rule he wouldn't be wrong.

4-4-7 d. Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

I said this previously, but my understanding is that the "available to a player" is what we use to start the count if Jr. is just standing there watching it bounce. I see that you're the rule doesn't specify this, and I don't disagree, but it seems to me this is where "intent" of the rule comes into play. The intent of the 5 second rule is not to prevent B from getting a quick TO just because A5 grabs the ball out on its way out of the net.

The 5 second rule is designed as a restriction on the offense, not the defense.


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