Throw In - Ball at disposal of a player

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

...

By the way, tell Mrs. Adam that sometimes the picture looks like a Rorschach blot.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

I said this previously, but my understanding is that the "available to a player" is what we use to start the count if Jr. is just standing there watching it bounce. I see that you're the rule doesn't specify this, and I don't disagree, but it seems to me this is where "intent" of the rule comes into play. The intent of the 5 second rule is not to prevent B from getting a quick TO just because A5 grabs the ball out on its way out of the net.

The 5 second rule is designed as a restriction on the offense, not the defense.

Agree. The implied phrase is available to the player "to make a throw in". Since you can't make a throwin from inbounds, it is not yet available for the throwin until they get it OOB....or had enough time to do so but are delaying.

Starting the count and disallowing a timeout once the ball is caught coming out of the basket is indeed wrong.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Popey

We discussed this and decided it might be at different points depending on speed of game. For a slow paced walk up and down court probably would not start count until thrower with ball on out of bound side. For a fast paced 2-3 passes down the court and laying up on other end game, would probably start count as soon as B1 catches ball out of basket.

Was just checking to see if any specific rule or case book scenario we didn't know about that would give a more definitive answer to this question.

4-42-2 "A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds."

7-6-1 "The official shall hand or bounce the ball to the thrower for a throw-in unless the throw-in is from outside an end line following a successful goal."

9-2-4 "Once the throw-in starts, the ball shall be released . . . . .. . before five seconds have elapsed." We cannot take away any of the allotted five seconds by starting the count while the thrower is still in bounds.

I can find no rule basis for ever starting a throw-in and throw-in count before the thrower gets out of bounds except when the thrower delays taking the ball out of bounds as Adam says.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by billyu2

I can find no rule basis for ever starting a throw-in and throw-in count before the thrower gets out of bounds except when the thrower delays taking the ball out of bounds.

Agree. Nice citations.

[Rich1]

By rule, after a made basket the throw in begins when two things happen - the ball is available to the player and the ref starts the count. There is no mention in the rules about allowing the player to step out of bounds first. This is different than other throw ins because we handle the ball.

Now, in practice, I give a player time to step out if they grab the ball and are not delay in moving out of bounds. I start the count if they do not secure the ball and head that way with purpose.

Using some of the logic cited earlier, then it could be argued that we shouldn't place the ball on the floor and begin a count during the delay of game procedure because if the player isn't out of bounds then we can't start the throw in. Yes, its an absurd stretch, but serves to illustrate that throw ins occur under different circumstances and are officiated that way. (And yes I know the "ROP" procedure is rule, I'm just making a point)

The answer to the question in the OP is you start the count when in your judgement you feel the team has access to the ball and has had time to pick it up and step out of bounds. You do not need to wait until they actually do so.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich1

By rule, after a made basket the throw in begins when two things happen - the ball is available to the player and the ref starts the count. There is no mention in the rules about allowing the player to step out of bounds first. This is different than other throw ins because we handle the ball.

That is not the rule. All that rule is saying is that when the official, due to delay by the team, decides to start the throwin count, the throwin has effectively begun.

The question you have to ask about this rules is "Available for what"? What if the ball bounces funny as it comes out of the next and goes to midcourt and is picked up by a player (or into the 12th row)? Is it available then? Of course not. If not at 40' from the endline, what about 30'? 20'? How close is close enough? The only line you have is the endline.

See this rule:

Rule 4-42 Art. 2...A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds.

So, by definition, it must be OOB for a throwin to occur.

The phrase about the official begging the count as being the start of the throwin is ONLY for situations where the player is delaying and could have been OOB. It i is not telling us to start the count as soon as a player catches it.

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The phrase about the official begging the count as being the start of the throwin is ONLY for situations where the player is delaying and could have been OOB. It i is not telling us to start the count as soon as a player catches it.

Agreed. And this is how I call it. If the ball bounces far away it is not at their disposal so you should not start a count. But in this situation, the throw in does not begin until they have the ball at their disposal, and I start counting. It does not matter where they re standing when these two things occur. In fact, if they step out with the ball but for somevreason I don't start counting then technically the throw in hasn't started (its splitting hairs but if they haven't released the ball you could award the timeout).

I stand by my original statement for throw ins after a made basket. Its a different situation than other throw ins.

[JetMetFan]

Here are the relevant NFHS rules as I see it...

7-6-2 The throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in.

4-4-7d A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

4-42-3 The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.

4-42-2 A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds.

Given the language of the first three, 4-42-2 should probably read "A throw-in is a method of making the ball live after it has been dead."

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Here are the relevant NFHS rules as I see it...

7-6-2 The throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in.

4-4-7d A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

4-42-3 The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.

4-42-2 A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds.

Given the language of the first three, 4-42-2 should probably read "A throw-in is a method of making the ball live after it has been dead."

Why? Can it be from anywhere other than OOB?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Here are the relevant NFHS rules as I see it...

7-6-2 The throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in.

4-4-7d A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

4-42-3 The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.

4-42-2 A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds.

Given the language of the first three, 4-42-2 should probably read "A throw-in is a method of making the ball live after it has been dead."

Why? Can it be from anywhere other than OOB?

It would be more accurate to reword 4-4-7 to more clearly define disposal.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Why? Can it be from anywhere other than OOB?

It would be more accurate to reword 4-4-7 to more clearly define disposal.

If...

*the throw-in begins when the ball is at the disposal of a player on the team entitled to it, and...
*disposal begins when the ball is available to a player and the official begins their count

and...if a player is delaying and the official begins his/her count before the player steps OOB, the throw-in, by rule, has begun.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

If...

*the throw-in begins when the ball is at the disposal of a player on the team entitled to it, and...
*disposal begins when the ball is available to a player and the official begins their count

and...if a player is delaying and the official begins his/her count before the player steps OOB, the throw-in, by rule, has begun.

Agree, but that is the exception to address a player/team trying to cheat the rule, not the norm.

Again, what is "available"? I can't believe that could mean anything other than actually being given enough time to get the ball to a spot where the throwin could be legally made.

[Raymond]

Operative words here are "inferred" and "judgment".

[bob jenkins]

2006-07 SITUATION 9: With less than one minute to play in the fourth quarter, Team A scores a field goal to tie the game. B1, standing under the basket after the score, secures the ball and begins heading to the end line for the ensuing throw-in. A1 requests and is granted a time-out. RULING: Legal procedure. Team A may request and be granted a time-out until the ensuing throw-in begins. The throw-in does not begin until B1 has the ball at his/her disposal and the official has begun the five-second count.

I also seem to recall that "out of bounds" was part of the "disposal" definition a few years ago. I don't have my attic handy to check.

[Adam]

I think it's important to remember the purpose of the 5 second rule.

It's intended to limit the time the offense has to execute a throw-in.

It is not intended to limit the scoring team's ability to request a timeout.