Traveling refresher

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't have it handy, but is the rule book different from the case book:

Yes: "A player holding the ball after gaining control while on the floor.........may not attempt to get up or stand."

Is there a difference between "getting up" and "getting to the feet"?

Also, the rule book doesn't mention that the player can't roll over.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The rule book doesn't mention that the player can't roll over.

You're correct. The rulebook doesn't say that a player can't roll over, but the casebook does say that a player can't roll over.

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over.

I get what you're saying, but let's not confuse the issue for rookies, and for those that just joined the discussion.

[Amesman]

And just to clarify (focusing on the "no longer sliding" in red from Billy), if a player dives after a ball, grabs said orb and doesn't like the chest burn he/she is getting -- while momentum continues to glide this person across the floor -- he/she may "rotate"/twist on to the buttocks before coming to a stop and THEN faces the no-rollover restrictions, right?

Seems this is actually a fairly common occurrence for this scenario (diving, possessing, twisting so as to be sitting for better view/passing opportunities).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Amesman

And just to clarify (focusing on the "no longer sliding" in red from Billy), if a player dives after a ball, grabs said orb and doesn't like the chest burn he/she is getting -- while momentum continues to glide this person across the floor -- he/she may "rotate"/twist on to the buttocks before coming to a stop and THEN faces the no-rollover restrictions, right?

Seems this is actually a fairly common occurrence for this scenario (diving, possessing, twisting so as to be sitting for better view/passing opportunities).

Yep.

I asked an official I respect about situations like this and he said "reward good play and penalize bad play".

Don't fully know what that means, but maybe it will help someone trying to understand this play.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I asked an official I respect about situations like this and he said "reward good play and penalize bad play".

Don't fully know what that means, but maybe it will help someone trying to understand this play.

Honestly, it sounds like a quote from someone who doesn't want to look up the rule.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

Honestly, it sounds like a quote from someone who doesn't want to look up the rule.

Or, want to just not call anything unless they're forced to....which is really not good for the game.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I asked an official I respect about situations like this and he said "reward good play and penalize bad play".

Don't fully know what that means, but maybe it will help someone trying to understand this play.

Originally Posted by Adam

Honestly, it sounds like a quote from someone who doesn't want to look up the rule.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Or, want to just not call anything unless they're forced to....which is really not good for the game.

Let him try that one with his supervisor, especially if he works college ball. I don't think his supervisor will be too happy.

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I asked an official I respect about situations like this and he said "reward good play and penalize bad play".

Don't fully know what that means, but maybe it will help someone trying to understand this play.

Suggest you find different official to respect.

Originally Posted by Mregor

Suggest you find different official to respect.

I talked to him the other day and he clarified it for me. Of course he calls the game by the rules....but this is one thing that helps him with the gray area plays and overall game management.

[BigT]

Situation

A player is on their butt with the ball. They are on their right hip and here comes a defender to take the ball. They roll to their left hip lifting their right hip off the ground and pass to their point guard.

Was this attempt to get up... I dont think so.

Did this give them advantage? I think so?

Is their right butt/hip considered a pivot like foot and changing that pivot to the left butt/hip considered changing pivots?

I wish the rule book made this clearer because half the referees I see call nothing and half call a travel.

My friend says roll over means rolling as 180 degree barrel roll. I see this as more advantage partially rolling away from a defender who comes to tie up the ball.

I want the opinions here with any reasoning why that I can use on my partners/coaches to make me a better referee. I see this play happen I want to be more confident inside and out when I make my decision.

Thanks in advance.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigT

Situation

A player is on their butt with the ball. They are on their right hip and here comes a defender to take the ball. They roll to their left hip lifting their right hip off the ground and pass to their point guard.

Was this attempt to get up... I dont think so.

Did this give them advantage? I think so?

Is their right butt/hip considered a pivot like foot and changing that pivot to the left butt/hip considered changing pivots?

I wish the rule book made this clearer because half the referees I see call nothing and half call a travel.

My friend says roll over means rolling as 180 degree barrel roll. I see this as more advantage partially rolling away from a defender who comes to tie up the ball.

I want the opinions here with any reasoning why that I can use on my partners/coaches to make me a better referee. I see this play happen I want to be more confident inside and out when I make my decision.

Thanks in advance.

The travel rule doesn't contain anything related to "advantage" (and even if it did, it would be to NOT call something that is technically a violation if it DOES NOT gain an advantage. )

Even if this were true, it would only then be illegal to put the right check back on the floor.

The play you describe is legal -- this does not constitute a "roll."

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BigT

Situation

A player is on their butt with the ball. They are on their right hip and here comes a defender to take the ball. They roll to their left hip lifting their right hip off the ground and pass to their point guard.

Was this attempt to get up... I dont think so.

Did this give them advantage? I think so?

Is their right butt/hip considered a pivot like foot and changing that pivot to the left butt/hip considered changing pivots?

I wish the rule book made this clearer because half the referees I see call nothing and half call a travel.

My friend says roll over means rolling as 180 degree barrel roll. I see this as more advantage partially rolling away from a defender who comes to tie up the ball.

I want the opinions here with any reasoning why that I can use on my partners/coaches to make me a better referee. I see this play happen I want to be more confident inside and out when I make my decision.

Thanks in advance.

Assume it is not a travel unless you can find something definitive in the rule book that states this action is a travel.

[Camron Rust]

No travel. Rocking form hip to hip, while sitting, is not attempting to get up nor is it rolling over.

Rolling over is a player is turning from the stomach to the back, or from laying on their right side to laying on the left side.....something like a full 180 degree change of orientation.

[BillyMac]

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control.
A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without
violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once
A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her
back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling
unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises
and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Rolling over is a player is turning from the stomach to the back, or from laying on their right side to laying on the left side.....something like a full 180 degree change of orientation.

Does it have to be 180 degrees? How about a player holding the ball while flat on his back who rolls ninety degrees to his left (ball moves from top of player's stomach to almost to the floor) to prevent a steal by an opponent on his right (the ball moves along with the rolling motion of the player's body, both move ninety degrees)?