Block/PC (video)

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Because?

Yeah, went back and forth, but I just don't think I'd be able to see that PC to too many people that matter, so typed what my initial reaction was before watching slow motion a few times. "She's moving toward the offensive player at the time of contact. By rule, that's a blocking foul." I know the blue part is being debated here, but that's what I'd say.

[JetMetFan]

I'll say it again: If we're going to hold defenders to a standard that they're not permitted to bring themselves upright after obtaining LGP in a crash situation like this we're not following the rules (of verticality, specifically).

For this play I'm still trying to figure out what illegal movement is taking place. The defender gets her feet down with her torso facing the BH/dribbler, takes the contact in the torso after her vertical space is violated and the foul is supposed to be on her?

[APG]

1. She wasn't set
2. She hopped into position
3. She was moving laterally
4. She was moving

I think that covers it all

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I'll say it again: If we're going to hold defenders to a standard that they're not permitted to bring themselves upright after obtaining LGP in a crash situation like this we're not following the rules (of verticality, specifically).

For this play I'm still trying to figure out what illegal movement is taking place. The defender gets her feet down with her torso facing the BH/dribbler, takes the contact in the torso after her vertical space is violated and the foul is supposed to be on her?

It isn't a matter of bringing themselves upright from a crouched position as in the the case many are describing (which I'm OK with and actually call the way you're advocating).

In this play, she was still arriving into position. At no time did her forward movement stop before contact. For a defender to even have LGP and the right to verticality, they have to stop moving forward. I've quoted the rule and it is a pretty simple rule....move forward, you lose LGP. This just isn't a verticality situation.

Since she was still moving forward into the space, it wasn't yet her space. If she had stopped....then straightened up, it would have been a charge, but she never stopped.

EDIT: I just watched your super slo-mo and it confirms that she never stopped moving forward. She was slowing down, but her position in each and every frame was forward of the previous frame....thus, no LGP. In real time, some might call it a PC and it might be acceptable to have that called a PC given how close it was, but the video doesn't lie. It only says it was close to being a PC, but not quite. Some might call that splitting hairs, but no matter where you draw the line, there is a decision to be made. You can't avoid it with two players moving towards each other.

[ballgame99]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Since she was still moving forward into the space, it wasn't yet her space. If she had stopped....then straightened up, it would have been a charge, but she never stopped.

EDIT: I just watched your super slo-mo and it confirms that she never stopped moving forward. She was slowing down, but her position in each and every frame was forward of the previous frame....thus, no LGP. In real time, some might call it a PC and it might be acceptable to have that called a PC given how close it was, but the video doesn't lie. It only says it was close to being a PC, but not quite. Some might call that splitting hairs, but no matter where you draw the line, there is a decision to be made. You can't avoid it with two players moving towards each other.

Are you saying she is moving toward the offensive player? I only see her moving laterally, which she is allowed to do. I see her feet get to the spot and then she straitens up and contact occurs.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

Are you saying she is moving toward the offensive player? I only see her moving laterally, which she is allowed to do. I see her feet get to the spot and then she straitens up and contact occurs.

Yes. Her position (in the super slo-mo) starts 2-3 feet closer the the basket than she ends up. She started from a position 2-3 feet below the level of letters in the lane and 2-3 feet outside of the lane and ended up on the upper portion the letters in the lane. The line on which she moves is almost directly at the point where she meets the opponent (towards the opponent).

Below is a screen grab of the key moments...
1. At the start of her move to get into the path
2. Just before contact
3. At contact

I've added lines to represent the defender's position at each moment. The red set is the defender's position relative to the endline, which may or may not be sufficient to see if the defender was moving towards the dribbler since the defender is not moving directly away from the endline. It does show the defender moving towards midcourt as well as toward the interior of the lane.

The green set is the defender's position relative to the dribbler set at the same point on the defender's chest. The yellow line is the line directly between the defender and the dribbler. The camera angle is such that it would be valid to use the green lines as the plane between the two players. Using fixed markings (such as the trash can) on the court/wall relative to the defender's position you can see that the defender's position continued forward until contact.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... the trash can ...

Easy. The trash can was there first, has legal guarding position, and doesn't move in any direction. Legal play on the trash can. Player control foul on dribbler.

[Mregor]

Realize I'm late to the game on this one but 2 points. First, I literally laughed out loud on this...

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Easy. The trash can was there first, has legal guarding position, and doesn't move in any direction. Legal play on the trash can. Player control foul on dribbler.

Second, PC. Without the frame by frame analysis which I'm not smart enough to do in a game, to me the defender got to the spot first and the contact was center mass. That's what I would process in my own mind in a game to get to my PC conclusion. (Plus PC is my favorite call of all and I look good calling it! After all, that's what is important, right? )

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yes. Her position (in the super slo-mo) starts 2-3 feet closer the the basket than she ends up. She started from a position 2-3 feet below the level of letters in the lane and 2-3 feet outside of the lane and ended up on the upper portion the letters in the lane. The line on which she moves is almost directly at the point where she meets the opponent (towards the opponent).

Below is a screen grab of the key moments...
1. At the start of her move to get into the path
2. Just before contact
3. At contact

I've added lines to represent the defender's position at each moment. The red set is the defender's position relative to the endline, which may or may not be sufficient to see if the defender was moving towards the dribbler since the defender is not moving directly away from the endline. It does show the defender moving towards midcourt as well as toward the interior of the lane.

The green set is the defender's position relative to the dribbler set at the same point on the defender's chest. The yellow line is the line directly between the defender and the dribbler. The camera angle is such that it would be valid to use the green lines as the plane between the two players. Using fixed markings (such as the trash can) on the court/wall relative to the defender's position you can see that the defender's position continued forward until contact.

Looking at your photos. She's legal in frame 2 before she gets hit, she's legal in frame three.

Where she choses to put her chest/stomach inside her cylinder isn't illegal whether she sticks her butt back or lifts her chest and legs up (which will move her hips and ribs outward/foward everytime). It only becomes illegal when she extends beyond her cylinder or plane.

You are the one combining the LGP and verticality rules. Most posters here are trying to keep them seperate.

If she were standing still prior to the play and the difference in her body between frame 2 and 3 that you posted was just her choice of movement to challenge shooter, protect herself whatever . . .would you have a foul. Just standing there and her posture from frame 2-3 was only change?

The offensive player has no expectation of time and space. I think you are punishing the defender for what she was doing prior to establishing LGP. ie. Facing and in path. Rather then officiating what she does once she has it.

I know your argument may be that she doesn't have it. But by the requierments she does have LGP. I think you are the only person counting torso movement inside her cylinder (or from behind to into depending on your take) as forward movement. Occupying space you are entitled to should not be a foul/

[IUgrad92]

Tough play either way, and from the discussion and frame by frame breakdown there is still differing thoughts. This could easily be a play that, if it happens two nights in a row, you might call it differently for each, depending on a number of factors.

However this 'close' play ends up getting called, the best thing as a crew is to just make sure anything similar at the other end of the court goes the same direction for consistency.....

Agree though that L should not have had a primary whistle, rather been there for a 'crew call', if needed.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Looking at your photos. She's legal in frame 2 before she gets hit, she's legal in frame three.

She would be legal if she didn't continue to move forward. The LGP rules quite clearly state that moving forward negates LGP if contact occurs during the forward movement. If the movement is upward (verticality) it would be legal, but there isn't even a hint of such movement. Even if there were, that doesn't excuse the forward movement.

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Where she choses to put her chest/stomach inside her cylinder isn't illegal whether she sticks her butt back or lifts her chest and legs up (which will move her hips and ribs outward/foward everytime). It only becomes illegal when she extends beyond her cylinder or plane.

You are the one combining the LGP and verticality rules. Most posters here are trying to keep them separate.

Verticality is about vertical movement....none of which happens in this play. Also, the cylinder (no such thing, really, verticality is defined by a plane) isn't defined by where the player puts their feet but where the front of torso is located. Your entire argument hinges on a defender having the right to space in front of them which they are not occupying. No defender has such rights. She is moving her entire torso into new space all the way to the point of contact.

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

If she were standing still prior to the play and the difference in her body between frame 2 and 3 that you posted was just her choice of movement to challenge shooter, protect herself whatever . . .would you have a foul. Just standing there and her posture from frame 2-3 was only change?

Yes. First, no one can stand with the posture in #2 without falling on their butt. Even if she could, it would still be a foul. She is moving forward and sticking her chest/belly out in front of the position she legally obtained. Verticality and the cylinder doesn't really apply here but even it if did, she's moving it forward, not moving up within it.

Verticality, as in firming up, isn't what is happening here. She isn't straightening the body to be aligned vertically which usually occurs when a player raises up with their shoulders arms bring the belly/hips forward to be in line with the shoulders. She is moving all parts forward....not the same thing as bringing the midsection inline with the upper body.

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

The offensive player has no expectation of time and space. I think you are punishing the defender for what she was doing prior to establishing LGP. ie. Facing and in path. Rather then officiating what she does once she has it.

Again, by still moving forward, she gives up any LGP she may have obtained.

I quote the guarding rule again:

c.The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.

She IS moving forward, not upward....LGP lost.

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

I know your argument may be that she doesn't have it. But by the requirements she does have LGP. I think you are the only person counting torso movement inside her cylinder (or from behind to into depending on your take) as forward movement. Occupying space you are entitled to should not be a foul/

The movement is NOT inside her cylinder. Her cylinder is where she is, not in front of it...and only UPWARD movement is allowed by verticality. The space she is entitled to is not the space in front of her.


Here is another rule quote covering verticality (found in the section on the use of hands/arms):

It is legal to extend the arms vertically above the shoulders and need not be lowered to avoid contact with an opponent when the action of the opponent causes contact.

Note that the reference for verticality in this rule is the shoulders, not the feet.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

She was slowing down, but her position in each and every frame was forward of the previous frame.....

...and then both her feet hit the floor prior to contact from the BH/dribbler, meaning for that moment she has LGP and then verticality takes over. She was not out of her vertical plane when contact took place. If you pause the slo-mo at the moment of contact the defender's feet/knees are slightly ahead of her torso, not even or behind. How would she be creating contact?

Originally Posted by APG

1. She wasn't set
2. She hopped into position
3. She was moving laterally
4. She was moving

I think that covers it all

Sure, make trouble why don't you?

[OKREF]

I've got a PC at full speed, slo-mo, paused, frame by frame, or any other speed.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

...and then both her feet hit the floor prior to contact from the BH/dribbler, meaning for that moment she has LGP and then verticality takes over. She was not out of her vertical plane when contact took place. If you pause the slo-mo at the moment of contact the defender's feet/knees are slightly ahead of her torso, not even or behind. How would she be creating contact?

Not correct. Having feet down only gets LGP if the body is over those feet and the body is not moving forward into the opponent....see the rule I've quoted several times. Sticking a foot out in front of you doesn't give you that spot until your body reaches that spot too.

Again, she was not going UP, she was going forward. Verticality doesn't matter relative to forward motion. That is just the wrong application of verticality.

I could accept that if, in real time, you felt she maybe got there in time and was no longer moving forward, but you're using the wrong rule to justify it.