Block/PC (video)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

So...here's the play slowed down even more. I don't agree with your premise because there's nothing in terms of establishing LGP that requires a player's upper body to stop moving.

Here you go (from rule 4-23 GUARDING, older rule number perhaps)...

ART. 3 . . . After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
...
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.

It only allows the player to jump UP, not move forward.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

However, even if I did agree with you when does the defender violate the rule of verticality? Verticality exists when you have LGP, which the defender established by having both feet on the court with her torso facing her opponent. The rules of verticality allow a player movement within their vertical plane - or their "cylinder" as Panther put it - provided they don't create contact outside that plane/cylinder. As I mentioned before, the offensive player enters the defender's plane/sphere and creates contact. Even if I/we allow for your interpretation and the defender isn't legal, the offensive player doesn't give her a chance to commit a foul. Think of it similar to a screen: I can set a screen that will be illegal but if my opponent shoves me over the foul is on them.

The rules of verticality allow VERTICAL movement, not lateral movement. That is why it is called verticality. Guarding rules clearly (as I mention above) disallow forward movement.

These two players are coming together. In the context of block/charge, the requirements are 100% on the defender to be legal. If the defender is moving forward, they are not legal and it doens't matter what the offensive player is doing, it is a block.

If a player shoves another, then it isn't a block/charge play. That is a different discussion.

[Raymond]

Super Slo-Mo convinces even more that it's a PC foul, and that the Lead not only should not have had a whistle, he didn't even give the C first crack.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The rules of verticality allow VERTICAL movement, not lateral movement. That is why it is called verticality. Guarding rules clearly (as I mention above) disallow forward movement.

These two players are coming together. In the context of block/charge, the requirements are 100% on the defender to be legal. If the defender is moving forward, they are not legal and it doesn't matter what the offensive player is doing, it is a block.

If a player shoves another, then it isn't a block/charge play. That is a different discussion.

Section F of Verticality: The defender "may not 'belly up' or use the lower part of the body or arms to cause contact outside her vertical plane."

Section B of Verticality: The defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy the space within her vertical plane. (BTW, one of the definitions of "rise" is "to assume an upright position")

Verticality doesn't limit a player to just vertical movement. A player is limited to movement within their vertical plane. There's a difference. Obviously if a player steps forward or leans into an opponent outside their vertical plane that's a foul. The defender in this case didn't move her feet forward and didn't lean into her opponent/create contact. Any movement was within her vertical sphere of influence after she established LGP.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... cylinder ...

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

... plane ... sphere ...

Two of these are three dimensional objects, while one is a two dimensional object. Using all three in the same argument can lead to a lot of mathematically challenging questions. Let's try to stick to the same "dimension".

Also, where does it say that the cylinder is defined by the feet? I would think that the torso looks more like a cylinder than two feet look like a cylinder. Again we have a problem with dimensions. The base of a cylinder is a plane and it takes three points to define a plane. Unless a player has a third foot, or a tail, I would think that the base of that cylinder is best described by the dimensions (radius) of the torso.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Block.
Shouldn't be a double whistle.
Center should be able to (and apparently does, in this case) be fully aware of, anticipate, and officiate both the screening play and the secondary defender coming over.
My guess is Lead's ball-watching and too invested in the play, leading to that quick whistle out of his primary.

Thanks for posting. Nice discussion play.

Also, haven't been on in a while, come back, skip to last page of this thread, see this:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

...The base of a cylinder is a plane and it takes three points to define a plane. Unless a player has a third foot, or a tail, I would think that the base of that cylinder is best described by the dimensions (radius) of the torso.

= awesome.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

Block.

Because?

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Because?

Yeah, went back and forth, but I just don't think I'd be able to see that PC to too many people that matter, so typed what my initial reaction was before watching slow motion a few times. "She's moving toward the offensive player at the time of contact. By rule, that's a blocking foul." I know the blue part is being debated here, but that's what I'd say.

[JetMetFan]

I'll say it again: If we're going to hold defenders to a standard that they're not permitted to bring themselves upright after obtaining LGP in a crash situation like this we're not following the rules (of verticality, specifically).

For this play I'm still trying to figure out what illegal movement is taking place. The defender gets her feet down with her torso facing the BH/dribbler, takes the contact in the torso after her vertical space is violated and the foul is supposed to be on her?

[APG]

1. She wasn't set
2. She hopped into position
3. She was moving laterally
4. She was moving

I think that covers it all

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I'll say it again: If we're going to hold defenders to a standard that they're not permitted to bring themselves upright after obtaining LGP in a crash situation like this we're not following the rules (of verticality, specifically).

For this play I'm still trying to figure out what illegal movement is taking place. The defender gets her feet down with her torso facing the BH/dribbler, takes the contact in the torso after her vertical space is violated and the foul is supposed to be on her?

It isn't a matter of bringing themselves upright from a crouched position as in the the case many are describing (which I'm OK with and actually call the way you're advocating).

In this play, she was still arriving into position. At no time did her forward movement stop before contact. For a defender to even have LGP and the right to verticality, they have to stop moving forward. I've quoted the rule and it is a pretty simple rule....move forward, you lose LGP. This just isn't a verticality situation.

Since she was still moving forward into the space, it wasn't yet her space. If she had stopped....then straightened up, it would have been a charge, but she never stopped.

EDIT: I just watched your super slo-mo and it confirms that she never stopped moving forward. She was slowing down, but her position in each and every frame was forward of the previous frame....thus, no LGP. In real time, some might call it a PC and it might be acceptable to have that called a PC given how close it was, but the video doesn't lie. It only says it was close to being a PC, but not quite. Some might call that splitting hairs, but no matter where you draw the line, there is a decision to be made. You can't avoid it with two players moving towards each other.