(NBA) 0 and 00 on same team

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

OF course not.

Bob,

Of course not "what"? Not allowed at all? Or, allowed, but with penalty?

I recall a thread season before last where this situation was discussed and most of the discussion centered around an 2009/8/7 interpretation that not only allowed both numbers but it also allowed both player to play - with penalty, of course.

Is my memory failing me or am I misunderstanding your post?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

..allowed both numbers but it also allowed both player to play - with penalty.

Duplicate numbers can never play, not even at the expense of a technical foul. Illegal numbers (0 and 00, 6, 79, etc.) can play, but only at the expense of a technical foul.

Illegal numbers being able to play at the expense of a technical foul has been around since time began (when I started officiating). Calling both 0 and 00 illegal numbers has only been around for a little more than ten years (it seems like only yesterday).

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is not recent change in NFHS, is it? Hasn't that always been the rule? If that is the case, it has nothing to do with software.

Originally Posted by Adam

Agreed. Software may or may not be an excuse for leaving it the way it is, but I don't see how software could have affected a rule that has been in place since Bill Gates was a kid.

The problem could easily be remedied by attaching names to stats rather than player number (I assume most do it that way anyway). The player number doesn't have to be a numeric field, even if it's a number, thus allowing for 0 and 00.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It began in 2000 (it was announced in 97-98, to be effective a couple of years later)

The prohibition was adopted by both the NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's rules committees at the same time. And it was indeed adopted because software for scoring and statistics was finding its way into the marketplace that could be used at courtside and it could NOT distinguish between 0 and 00. So ends today's history lesson.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

So ends today's history lesson.

Somehow I doubt it.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Adam

Somehow I doubt it.

Since I have retired from real work it is only one history lesson a day.

MTD, Sr.

[just another ref]

I guess he told us.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

Bob,

Of course not "what"? Not allowed at all? Or, allowed, but with penalty?

I recall a thread season before last where this situation was discussed and most of the discussion centered around an 2009/8/7 interpretation that not only allowed both numbers but it also allowed both player to play - with penalty, of course.

Is my memory failing me or am I misunderstanding your post?

I think it's pretty clear if you follow the thread that I mean 0 and 00 are not allowed in HS. Right from the book.

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think it's pretty clear if you follow the thread that I mean 0 and 00 are not allowed in HS. Right from the book.

Bob,

I always read your posts and probably put more weight on them than anyone's. During that discussion season before last, it was your post that convinced me that the 2008/09 interp Situation 2 allowed both numbers to be on the book without penalty. And, that both could play with penalty for illegal jersey? Not illegal number but illegal jersey.

Has your stance on that interp changed? Or, has that interp been changed?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

Bob,

I always read your posts and probably put more weight on them than anyone's. During that discussion season before last, it was your post that convinced me that the 2008/09 interp Situation 2 allowed both numbers to be on the book without penalty. And, that both could play with penalty for illegal jersey? Not illegal number but illegal jersey.

Has your stance on that interp changed? Or, has that interp been changed?

Which thread was this?

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think it's pretty clear if you follow the thread that I mean 0 and 00 are not allowed in HS. Right from the book.

Bob,

I found the thread - Jan. of 2013 - and below is your post:

Neither (to have on the roster), or if only one plays.

Illegal (if they both play).

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by Adam

Which thread was this?

Adam,

I'm not very good at finding and copying posts from the past, but I did find the thread and it was in Jan. of 2013. I founf it in the search feature using key word- "2008/09 interpretations".

Mulk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

"2008/09 interpretations".

2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 2: A team has members with No. 0 and No. 00 listed in the scorebook and it is discovered (a) with 14 minutes on the clock prior to the game, (b) with 8 minutes on the clock prior to the game or (c) after the game starts. RULING: In (a), changes can be made without penalty. In (b), if a number is changed in the scorebook, a team technical is charged. The offended team is awarded two free throws and a throw-in at the division line to begin the game. The arrow is toward the offending team. If no changes are made to the scorebook, no infraction has occurred. In (c), after the game starts, there is no infraction if only one of the team members (No. 0 or No. 00) participates. If the second team member wishes to participate, the result is an illegal number when "discovered." The penalty is a direct technical foul on the head coach for an illegal uniform. Two free throws and a division line throw-in for the offended team and loss of coaching box privileges for the offending coach. The second team member (with the illegal uniform number) may participate without further penalty and is NOT required to change his/her number. Another possibility exists after the game starts when one of the team members wants to change his/her number prior to participating. The result is a team technical foul (no loss of coaching box) for changing the scorebook. COMMENT: No team should have both No. 0 and No. 00 on its regular roster. The infraction is likely due to bringing a player up or down a level. Therefore, it is possible the team has access to other legal uniforms to replace a uniform with an illegal number. (3-4-3d; 10-1-2; 10-5-4)

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

NFHS R3-S4-A3D: Each team member shall be numbered on the front and back of the team jersey with plain Arabic numerals. The following numbers are legal: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 00, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55. A team member list shall not have both numbers 0 and 00.

NCAA Men's/Women's R1-S22-A7b(2): The following numbers are legal: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 00, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, and 55. Team rosters can include 0 or 00, but not both.


The Rule in both NFHS and NCAA is quite clear: A team's roster in the Scorebook can have a player listed wearing 0 or 00 but the team cannot have two players listed with one wearing 0 and the second player wearing 00.

What bothers me about the RULING for SITUATION 2(c) of the 2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations is that it contradicts what is stated in the rules.

MTD, Sr.

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NFHS R3-S4-A3D: Each team member shall be numbered on the front and back of the team jersey with plain Arabic numerals. The following numbers are legal: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 00, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55. A team member list shall not have both numbers 0 and 00.

NCAA Men's/Women's R1-S22-A7b(2): The following numbers are legal: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 00, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, and 55. Team rosters can include 0 or 00, but not both.


The Rule in both NFHS and NCAA is quite clear: A team's roster in the Scorebook can have a player listed wearing 0 or 00 but the team cannot have two players listed with one wearing 0 and the second player wearing 00.

What bothers me about the RULING for SITUATION 2(c) of the 2008-09 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations is that it contradicts what is stated in the rules.

MTD, Sr.

MTD,

I don't think a rule that states "shall not" or "cannot" actually means that you can't. I think when a rule states "shall not", "cannot", the official should go to the penalties section of the rule? Sometimes, the penalty states "the player/team member cannot participate". Sometimes, it states "if the player participates, the player is charged with a technical foul".

Even more confusing, the 2008/09 interpretation trumped an earlier interpretation in 2000/2001 on the same rule?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

Bob,

I found the thread - Jan. of 2013 - and below is your post:

Neither (to have on the roster), or if only one plays.

Illegal (if they both play).

The fact that there's a penalty means that they aren't alowed.

You might as well ask" can a player run with the ball?"

No, it's not allowed.

Well, of course the player can -- but there's a penalty involved.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.