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Fri Jul 05, 2002, 12:27pm
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I created one of those memorable moments the other night.
LL Majors Tournament for Local Championship. Orange team batting. Red Team in the field. R2. Pitcher started his wind-up and stepped to the plate, ...then stopped, ...then started to deliver the ball to the plate. I immediately raised both hands and stepped left and out from the catcher yelling "Illegal Pitch!" As I stood out there like a goal post, the pitch came in and the right-handed batter swatted a Texas league single behind 1B. R2 moved th 3B. Play ended. I mmediately went to "the Manager" and said, "That was an illegal pitch, do you want the result or a ball?" He asks, "Did you call a balk?" I said, "No, I called an illegal pitch." He asks, "Did you call a balk?" I said, "No, I called an illegal pitch. There is no Balk at this level." He asks, "But, did you call a balk?" I said, "No, I called an illegal pitch." Then, I explained what the pitcher had done. and asked, "Do you want the result or a ball?" He said, "Well, I'll take the ball, but you'll have to show me that rule!" Okay, so why did he want the ball? (Idiot.). I sent R2 back to second and batter back to the plate and he grounds out to F4. Next batter come up and steps into the box. Before the first pitch, (I am thinking,"Aw shee-it!"). "Time!" I went to The "Other Manager" (Orange) and loudly explained that I just asked the wrong Manager what he wanted on that last play. I made it loud enough, with an apology, so the 75-80 fans there would hear me, and I wouldn't have to explain it again. ( after all, by this time, everyone knew the rule and that I had kicked it). Well, this Orange manager wanted the result, and out came the Red Manager and demanded an explanation. We worked it out. Put the original batter on 1B and moved R2 to 3B. He was yelling (not cursing), I was taking it because he was using words, though loud, that I could use in front of my Mom. Anyway, we got back to it and Red won by one in the bottom of the last.  mick B.S.- After the game, I brought Red Manager the rule and he will be ready for next year. 
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Fri Jul 05, 2002, 04:45pm
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Amusing story, Mick.............
I don't know specifically about your league rules, but in OBR the only time an offensive coach gets his choice of accepting the play due to a pitcher's infraction is when a pitcher delivers a "doctored" ball and play follows. Just my opinion, Freix
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Fri Jul 05, 2002, 09:01pm
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Yeah, but with the LL rules of "no balk" they had to fit this "what if" scenario somewhere. So, they put it into (I think) 8.05k. Seems like they could have just made it a ball, and left it like that.  mick
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Sat Jul 06, 2002, 01:25am
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I'd like to stick my two cents in here to both Mick and Freix.
First, MICK, you're right, being that it's Little League adds problems when it comes to things like balks and illegal pitches. (I don't believe, however, that Little League does in fact not allow a balk to be called. It's true the only balk that you would see called in Little League would be when the pitcher drops the ball while standing on the rubber. Of course, your league may have some special local rules that eliminate balk calls altogether). And while I don't pretend to remember many of the specific rules of Little League, I'm still certain that the OBR applies to your situation in this sense: since there was an illegal pitch, and since ALL RUNNERS INCLUDING THE BATTER RUNNER advanced one base safely, the play stands without regard to the illegal pitch. Period. (Read OBR 8.05(e), then PEANLTY following (m)). And Freix is correct---you do NOT allow the offensive manage to "decline the penalty" or accept any other option in this situation. Ever. Now, on the other hand, if in your case the batter had hit a fly ball that was caught, or if R2 had NOT reached 3rd base as a result of the "Texas Leaguer" then you would have called time and enforced the "Illegal Pitch" scenario---which means you would enforce the balk rule in accordance with 8.05(e). That is, when there is an illegal pitch with runners on base, the runners would be allowed to advance one base and the actual pitch to the batter would be considered as a "no pitch"---that is, neither a ball nor a strike, and the batter would come back to the plate. (You must realize that even though Little League doesn't "do" balks, that doesn't mean that the consequences of the balk rule---advancing a runner because of an illegal pitch--- doesn't apply. It does, and it should. Otherwise, what would be the incentive for a pitcher to NOT deliver illegal pitches, even in Little League? Now, FREIX. You are (half) correct in your statement about the Offensive Coach having a choice when it comes to delivering a "doctored" ball. The reason I say "half" is this: First (half), the other situation that allows the Offensive Coach to "decline the penalty" (as it were) or accept the play as it stands is when a ball is put into play even though there was a CATCHER'S INTERFERENCE (bat smacking the glove on the swing). Second (half): The ONLY TIME the Offensive Coach is allowed a choice (in both cases above) is if NOT ALL RUNNERS INCLUDING THE BATTER RUNNER have advanced at least one base safely. If all runners---including the batter-runner---have safely advanced at least one base, then the cather's interference or "doctored ball" is ignored as if neither happened. (Except for the warning about the "doctored ball," of course---grin). See Rule 8.02(c). Example 1 (manager has a choice because of a catcher's interference): R2, 1 out, tie game. The batter hits the catcher's glove while swinging at the pitch, but he manages to hit a deep fly ball to centerfield. The centerfielder catches it, and R2 tags up and starts running to 3rd. The centerfielder fires the ball in, but it's a wild throw, which further allows R2 to score. Umpire calls for a time out. Since not all runners (including the batter) did NOT safely advance at least one base, the umpire asks the Offensive Manager if he wants to accept the play as is, or if he wants the catcher's interference enforced. The manager, of course, decides to accept the play as is, since he just got the go ahead run. So, R2 scores, the batter is out, and there is now 2 outs. That is, play stands. (If R2 had not scored, the manager may have decided to accept the catcher's interference. Call? R2 is returned to 2nd base and the batter is awarded 1st. Still one out). Example 2 (no choice even though there was a catcher's interference): Same situation---R2, 1 out, tie game. The bat hits the catcher's glove on the swing, but the batter manages to hit a gapper in right-center. R2 takes off, hits 3rd, and starts heading for home. The right fielder throws to the cut-off, who fires the ball home and the catcher makes the tag on R2 for out number two (2). The catcher sees the batter-runner trying for 2nd base, so he throws down. The 2nd baseman tags out the sliding batter-runner for the 3rd out. Here comes the Offensive Manager, screaming and hollering "No way!" since there was a catcher's interference. Umpire's response? "Sorry, coach, play stands since ALL RUNNERS INCLUDING THE BATTER-RUNNER had safely advanced at least one base. Beyond that, they're on their own." End of conversation. For example 2, refer to Rule 6.08(c). Here's an excerpt: ". . . However, if the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batsman, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, the play proceeds without reference to the interference." (It also disallows the Offensive Manager to have a choice in the matter).
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Sat Jul 06, 2002, 06:19am
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Thanks for your help and that does apply to Little League levels above 12 year-old. Here is what Note to LL 8.05 says: mick
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Sat Jul 06, 2002, 06:22am
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Sat Jul 06, 2002, 06:11pm
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Many new umpires confuse the concept of penalize vs. ignore and understand it, in errror, as a coach's option. Again, the only time a coach gets an option due to pitcher is when a doctored ball is delivered to the batter and further play ensues. That is much easier to remember since seldom is a pitcher caught or even accused of delivering a doctored ball. Just my opinion, Freix
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Sat Jul 06, 2002, 08:24pm
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BFair, my bad. You're right, I will start paying a bit closer attention. My only excuse is that I was reading your thing at 2 AM (grin).
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Sun Jul 07, 2002, 12:31am
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...I must add
A coach is not given the CHOICE. As an umpire, we enforce the penalty. The coach is responsible for knowing the rules and knowing he HAS an option.
If he doesn't know the rules and know he has an option...we enforce the penalty and it is his mistake for being ignorant and not paying attention. Can't give an unfair advantage...right?
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Sun Jul 07, 2002, 03:41am
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Yo, Whowefoolin. Yes, and no. Yes, we enforce the rules . . . according to the rules. But coaches DO have a choice under certain situations. As such, we must offer the coach the ability to make a choice. THAT also is an important part of enforcing the rules.
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Sun Jul 07, 2002, 08:32am
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Just my opinion, Freix
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Mon Jul 08, 2002, 06:19am
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Pitcher started his wind-up and stepped to the plate, ...then stopped, ...then started to deliver the ball to the plate.
I immediately raised both hands and stepped left and out from the catcher yelling "Illegal Pitch!" You blew this one! Even though there is no balk in LL, the illegal pitch is still a delayed dead ball just like the balk. In other words, you just yell "illegal pitch" and if the pitcher delivers the ball and the batter hits it over the fence between the foul poles, it's a home run! As far as an option on this play, you need to read the rules again! Until you do, stop doing championship games.
__________________
When in doubt, bang 'em out! Ozzy
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Mon Jul 08, 2002, 06:40am
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I was thinking the same thing. I was close, but not close enough. mick
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Mon Jul 08, 2002, 11:53am
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Ah, Ozzy, baby, don't you think you're being a little too hard on poor Mick? I mean, don't do any more championship games until you learn ALL the rules? Never happen, dude. I've been reading the rulebook for 25 years and I STILL learn something knew every year. Besides, there's nothing like getting your "butt whipped" doing a game to do two things: 1) make sure you never forget THAT particular rule that just burned you. 2) cause you to go home after the game and read the rulebook (for once---grin). Nothing beats on the job training.
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