Throw In

[Triad zebra]

Originally Posted by bballref3966

No you can't.

2013-14 Case Book 9.2.2 Situation A

Thrower A1: (a) causes the ball to carom from the wall behind him/her, or from the floor out of bounds and then into the court; (b) caroms the ball from the back of the backboard to a player in the court; or (c) throws the ball against the side or the front face of the backboard, after which it rebounds into the hands of A2. RULING: Violation in (a) and (b), since the throw touched an object out of bounds. The throw-in in (c) is legal. The side and front face of the backboard are inbounds and, in this specific situation, are treated the same as the floor inbounds.

No of those 3 things has happened in the OP

[bballref3966]

Originally Posted by Triad zebra

No of those 3 things has happened in the OP

The back of the backboard is out of bounds by rule. The throw-in touched this object that is out of bounds and therefore it is a violation. Whether or not it is a "run the endline" throw-in or whether the ball comes back to the player is irrelevant—it's a violation. I'm not sure how that case play has nothing to do with the OP. Plus you said that you are allowed to throw the ball off the wall on a throw-in and obviously that's not true.

I think there is a difference between throwing the ball off the back wall and catching it and then throwing it into the court, and throwing the ball off the back wall and letting it bounce into the court without touching it again.

[Triad zebra]

Originally Posted by bballref3966

The back of the backboard is out of bounds by rule. The throw-in touched this object that is out of bounds and therefore it is a violation. Whether or not it is a "run the endline" throw-in or whether the ball comes back to the player is irrelevant—it's a violation. I'm not sure how that case play has nothing to do with the OP. Plus you said that you are allowed to throw the ball off the wall on a throw-in and obviously that's not true.

The case play references the ball touching out of bounds and then going into the court. My situations are bouncing the ball, off the backboard, floor or back wall and having the ball come straight back to A1. A1 can 100% without a doubt "dribble" the ball while standing out of bounds. So the question is what makes it illegal to throw it against the back of the backboard and have it rebound back to A1 while still out of bounds?

[Adam]

On an end line throw in, we have to determine the intent of the throw. 99% of the time, or more, the intent is obvious. This is one of those times. The intent was to throw the ball onto the court, thus making it a throw in pass. Once that throw in pass touches OOB before touching a player, it is a violation for having a TI pass go OOB before touching a player.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

On an end line throw in, we have to determine the intent of the throw. 99% of the time, or more, the intent is obvious. This is one of those times. The intent was to throw the ball onto the court, thus making it a throw in pass. Once that throw in pass touches OOB before touching a player, it is a violation for having a TI pass go OOB before touching a player.

This is the correct understanding and reasoning.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

On an end line throw in, we have to determine the intent of the throw. 99% of the time, or more, the intent is obvious. This is one of those times. The intent was to throw the ball onto the court, thus making it a throw in pass. Once that throw in pass touches OOB before touching a player, it is a violation for having a TI pass go OOB before touching a player.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is the correct understanding and reasoning.

Agree...but some say you can't go by intent but have to go by what actually happens. If that were the case, they never intended to throw it in if it returns to them.

[Nevadaref]

Please note that the front face of the backboard is four feet from the endline on a standard court, so this player threw the ball nearly four feet forward (actually a greater distance when the upward angle is factored in). That most certainly qualifies as a throw-in pass.
Fwiw, I agree that a player may bounce the ball on a rear wall without penalty if it is obvious that there is no intent for this to be the throw-in pass and the ball does not carom into the playing court.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Agree...but some say you can't go by intent ...

Some just know that determining intent is called judgment.

[LRZ]

Originally Posted by Adam

On an end line throw in, we have to determine the intent of the throw. 99% of the time, or more, the intent is obvious. This is one of those times. The intent was to throw the ball onto the court, thus making it a throw in pass. Once that throw in pass touches OOB before touching a player, it is a violation for having a TI pass go OOB before touching a player.

I don't see why we would judge intent, even in 1% of the cases. We place the ball at the disposal of the thrower, suggesting the player's role at that point. But what else is he to do with the ball? Why else would the player release the ball except to inbound it? Setting aside the issue of intent, which I'd consider irrelevant here, I agree with the second part of this analysis: the ball touched OOB before being touched by another player.

[bballref3966]

Why is there even a discussion about intent? The rule and case books pretty blatantly support that throwing the ball off an object out of bounds before it touches an inbounds player (not including dribbling on the floor) is a violation—there's no basis in the rule for judging intent. If it happens, it's a violation. Am I oversimplifying this?

[rsl]

7.7.2
ART. 2 . . . The throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in. The thrower shall release the ball on a pass directly into the court, except as in 7-5-7, within five seconds after the throw-in starts. The throw-in pass shall touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched. The throw-in pass shall not touch a teammate while it is on the out-of-bounds side of the throw-in boundary plane.

He violates in two ways, (1) His pass did not go directly into the court, and (2) the throw in pass did not touch another player on the court before going out of bounds untouched.