Throw In

[Adam]

On an end line throw in, we have to determine the intent of the throw. 99% of the time, or more, the intent is obvious. This is one of those times. The intent was to throw the ball onto the court, thus making it a throw in pass. Once that throw in pass touches OOB before touching a player, it is a violation for having a TI pass go OOB before touching a player.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Adam

On an end line throw in, we have to determine the intent of the throw. 99% of the time, or more, the intent is obvious. This is one of those times. The intent was to throw the ball onto the court, thus making it a throw in pass. Once that throw in pass touches OOB before touching a player, it is a violation for having a TI pass go OOB before touching a player.

This is the correct understanding and reasoning.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

On an end line throw in, we have to determine the intent of the throw. 99% of the time, or more, the intent is obvious. This is one of those times. The intent was to throw the ball onto the court, thus making it a throw in pass. Once that throw in pass touches OOB before touching a player, it is a violation for having a TI pass go OOB before touching a player.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is the correct understanding and reasoning.

Agree...but some say you can't go by intent but have to go by what actually happens. If that were the case, they never intended to throw it in if it returns to them.

[Nevadaref]

Please note that the front face of the backboard is four feet from the endline on a standard court, so this player threw the ball nearly four feet forward (actually a greater distance when the upward angle is factored in). That most certainly qualifies as a throw-in pass.
Fwiw, I agree that a player may bounce the ball on a rear wall without penalty if it is obvious that there is no intent for this to be the throw-in pass and the ball does not carom into the playing court.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bballref3966

2013-14 Case Book 9.2.2 Situation A: Thrower A1: causes the ball to carom from the floor out of bounds and then into the court; RULING: Violation in since the throw touched an object out of bounds.

So an inbounder can't make a "bounce pass" throwin, even if he's ten feet back from the boundary, and the ball bounces once out of bounds (within the designated spot), and then is caught by a player inbounds? I'm not sure that I'm calling that a violation in my game.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So an inbounder can't make a "bounce pass" throwin, even if he's ten feet back from the boundary, and the ball bounces once out of bounds (within the designated spot), and then is caught by a player inbounds? I'm not sure that I'm calling that a violation in my game.

You would be incorrect, Billy. That is indeed a throw-in violation.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So an inbounder can't make a "bounce pass" throwin, even if he's ten feet back from the boundary, and the ball bounces once out of bounds (within the designated spot), and then is caught by a player inbounds? I'm not sure that I'm calling that a violation in my game.

You should call that a violation - this is exactly what is described in the rule quoted above.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So an inbounder can't make a "bounce pass" throwin, even if he's ten feet back from the boundary, and the ball bounces once out of bounds (within the designated spot), and then is caught by a player inbounds? I'm not sure that I'm calling that a violation in my game.

I've called it plenty of times. If you're not going to call it if it bounces within the designated spot, why would you call it if it bounces OOB outside of the DS? There's no rule-based distinction there? The ball is not required to stay within the spot, only the player. In fact, if the thrower wants to "dribble", the "dribble" is not required to stay within the DS either.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So an inbounder can't make a "bounce pass" throwin, even if he's ten feet back from the boundary, and the ball bounces once out of bounds (within the designated spot), and then is caught by a player inbounds? I'm not sure that I'm calling that a violation in my game.

At the end of a game the inbounder, in adherence to that old bromide of "Roll it", releases the ball behind the endline and it ultimately makes its way onto the court. Do you have a whistle in this case?

[LRZ]

Originally Posted by justacoach

At the end of a game the inbounder, in adherence to that old bromide of "Roll it", releases the ball behind the endline and it ultimately makes its way onto the court. Do you have a whistle in this case?

If released onto the floor OOB, yes. If released directly in-bounds, no. I have no problem calling the violation in the first situation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So an inbounder can't make a "bounce pass" throwin, even if he's ten feet back from the boundary, and the ball bounces once out of bounds (within the designated spot), and then is caught by a player inbounds? I'm not sure that I'm calling that a violation in my game.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You would be incorrect, Billy. That is indeed a throw-in violation.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You should call that a violation - this is exactly what is described in the rule quoted above.

I know that it's a violation, but I would still have trouble calling it based on intent, and purpose.

Originally Posted by Adam

If you're not going to call it if it bounces within the designated spot, why would you call it if it bounces OOB outside of the DS? There's no rule-based distinction there? The ball is not required to stay within the spot, only the player. In fact, if the thrower wants to "dribble", the "dribble" is not required to stay within the DS either.

Originally Posted by bballref3966

The rule and case books pretty blatantly support that throwing the ball off an object out of bounds before it touches an inbounds player (not including dribbling on the floor) is a violation—there's no basis in the rule for judging intent. If it happens, it's a violation.

Yes, the casebook play is pretty clear.

Originally Posted by LRZ

It's not unusual, I think, for a player to grab the ball, step OOB and throw the ball against the back wall in frustration. I never even considered that a violation?

Nor would I, but it is a violation according to the caseplay. What's everybody else doing on this play: ignore, or violation?

Originally Posted by justacoach

At the end of a game the inbounder, in adherence to that old bromide of "Roll it", releases the ball behind the endline and it ultimately makes its way onto the court. Do you have a whistle in this case?

I don't think that I would, but the casebook is pretty clear that it's a violation.

An inbounder can "dribble" the ball, he can make a bounce pass, on a run the endline throwin, to another player out of bounds, but he can't throw a bounce pass, that bounces out of bounds, right in front of him, within his designated spot, to a teammate in bounds?

Yes, the casebook play is quite clear. I guess we have to officiate with the rules that we have, not with the rules that we would like to see.

[LRZ]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Fwiw, I agree that a player may bounce the ball on a rear wall without penalty if it is obvious that there is no intent for this to be the throw-in pass and the ball does not carom into the playing court.

It's not unusual, I think, for a player to grab the ball, step OOB and throw the ball against the back wall in frustration. I never even considered that a violation. "Intent" just seems superfluous, reading a term into a rule that isn't there. Some rules talk about intent, others don't, so why import it?

[Raymond]

Once you release the ball and it crosses the endline, if it touches anybody or anything other than yourself, you have released the ball for a throw-in. So when it hits the back of the backboard you have committed a throw-in violation.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by LRZ

It's not unusual, I think, for a player to grab the ball, step OOB and throw the ball against the back wall in frustration. I never even considered that a violation. "Intent" just seems superfluous, reading a term into a rule that isn't there. Some rules talk about intent, others don't, so why import it?

I don't see this, but I agree it's not a throw in pass, so it's not restricted the same way.

Now, if a player suddenly thinks he's Meadowlark Lemon and wants to throw it off of the wall to a teammate in bounds, that's a violation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Billy, the THROW-IN PASS cannot touch anything which is OOB prior to contacting a player on the court. If it does that is a throw-in violation. Any action which is NOT a throw-in pass does not have to adhere to that restriction. That is why a player may bounce the ball on the OOB area of the floor PRIOR to making a throw-in pass. The thrower could also bounce the ball of the back wall or the stanchion as long as that action is PRIOR to making the throw-in pass and not part of it.

Originally Posted by Adam

It's not a throw in pass, so it's not restricted the same way. Now, if a player suddenly thinks he's Meadowlark Lemon and wants to throw it off of the wall to a teammate in bounds, that's a violation.

Thanks for the great explanation guys, and for taking the time to post it.

I love the Meadowlark Lemon play. It should be in the casebook. And none of this A1, A2 crap, just have Meadowlark pass it to Curly Neal in the caseplay.