"blarge call" high school

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I think that we can divide this debate into two separate discussions:

1) The rule that defines Guarding.

2) How do we handle double whistles in general and a "blarge" in particular.


Discussion (1) is the easy discussion. We just know from our office in an "ivy covered, academic tower" that a "blarge" cannot exist. By rule there cannot be a "blarge". B-1 has either obtained (NFHS)/established (NCAA/FIBA) a LGP before contact between A-1 and B-1 occurs, or B-1 has not obtained/established a LGP.

Discussion (2) is about how we make our "big bucks" in the trenches when officiating a real game and not discussing hypothetical situations.

Double whistles are going to happen but hopefully we can keep them to a minimum. How we handle double whistles depends to some degree is determined by whether the game is a two-man crew of a three-man crew. They have two different philosophies to some degree. Two-man: It means that the vast majority of the time there should be one pair of eyes officiating on the ball and one pair of eyes officiating off the ball. Three-man: It means ,that depending upon position of the ball: there can be two pairs of eyes officiating on the ball and one pair of eyes officiating off the ball, OR, there can be one pair of eyes officiating on the ball and two pairs officiating of the ball.

The vast of majority of us have attended enough camps and we know that there are as many theories as to how to handle double whistles as there are camps.

I am not going to comment on the ways to handle double whistles that have been mentioned in the thread; but having a good pre-game goes a long way in reducing double whistles and how to handle the few double whistles that happen in one's game.

My concern in this thread is that the double whistle is a "blarge". The NFHS and NCAA Men's committees have given us, which in my humble () opinion a very unsatisfactory way to handle such a situation. While the NCAA Women's Committee recognizes (I will refrain from any snarky remarks, .) that by rule a "blarge" cannot happen and gives us guidelines as to how to solve the problem.

As a student of the rules of the game, it just makes my skin crawl, when I think of how the NFHS and the NCAA Men's committees want us to handle a "blarge". Their solution is not logical; it is not rational; nor can it be defended by rule. And everybody knows how I feel about interpretations that cannot be defended by rule, .

I have a story about a "blarge" that occurred in a boys' H.S. varsity game in Michigan about twenty years ago, but this post has gone on long enough.

MTD, Sr.

MTD,

Do you also believe that you can't have a "double foul" by rule? The rules committee has decided that the fouls were personal fouls committed against each other. I'm not saying that it is a better rule than the Women's, but the case book play makes it a rule.

Also, the camps that I have been to lately encourage double whistles instead of trying to avoid them. Admittedly, the camp is heavily influenced by Women's officials but a lack of a whistle in the lane will prompt the clinician to ask "why didn't you have a whistle on that play?"

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

...
As a student of the rules of the game, it just makes my skin crawl, when I think of how the NFHS and the NCAA Men's committees want us to handle a "blarge". Their solution is not logical; it is not rational; nor can it be defended by rule. And everybody knows how I feel about interpretations that cannot be defended by rule, .

I have a story about a "blarge" that occurred in a boys' H.S. varsity game in Michigan about twenty years ago, but this post has gone on long enough.

MTD, Sr.

Then throw the NBA in there also, since their rules allow for blarges also.

To me, a blarge is nothing more than a double foul, except called by 2 different officials, rather than one. I've only been involved in the one blarge call, and it didn't involve a collision. Dual-coverage area between L & T, T (me) calls a PC for A1 extending arm and pushing off, L calls block for B1 contacting A1 with a knee outside of his normal stance.

[RulesGeek]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

To me, a blarge is nothing more than a double foul, except called by 2 different officials, rather than one.

I'm new here and without nearly the experience of many of the posters, so take that into consideration, but I think MTD's point is that a blarge is NOT a double fou. A double foul is 2 players can simultaneously (or nearly so) making illegal contact to each other. A blarge, however, is a single contact RULED differently by 2 different officials. Either a block occurred; or a PC foul occurred. Not both. One needs to be called. Not both. If a blarge were a "double foul," it COULD be called by one official.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I've only been involved in the one blarge call, and it didn't involve a collision. Dual-coverage area between L & T, T (me) calls a PC for A1 extending arm and pushing off, L calls block for B1 contacting A1 with a knee outside of his normal stance.

That IS a double foul. NOT a blarge. (I think)

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Adam

Often? I've had exactly one of these in my career. One. In a summer game.

I've been personally involved in exactly one as well.

I've seen others (mainly JV guys) involved in several a year - most of which were just bad calls.

Was this in the UHA-Henderson game? If so what I heard was they did not know if the ball went in the basket? They should have went to the arrow? Looks like someone should have know if the ball went in the basket as they could have asked the scorekeeper?

Would it have made any difference if the shooter had missed the shot?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by big jake

Would it have made any difference if the shooter had missed the shot?

Since you didn't quote anything, it's hard to know to which play you are referring, but in the OP, yes, it would have made a difference.

The correct ruling for the OP was given early in the thread.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by RulesGeek

I'm new here and without nearly the experience of many of the posters, so take that into consideration, but I think MTD's point is that a blarge is NOT a double fou. A double foul is 2 players can simultaneously (or nearly so) making illegal contact to each other. A blarge, however, is a single contact RULED differently by 2 different officials. Either a block occurred; or a PC foul occurred. Not both. One needs to be called. Not both. If a blarge were a "double foul," it COULD be called by one official.





That IS a double foul. NOT a blarge. (I think)

A blarge is a double foul with one official calling a PC foul, and one calling a block. That's what happened on my play.

[deecee]

My personal feelings are that a BLARGE can not happen. The officials should get together and come to a conclusion on one or the other. Having a blarge IMO is the easy way out. But there is a very specific caseplay with instructions for what to do that must be followed. IMO they got it wrong and should look at the NCAA-W way of handling it.

You cannot have a BLOCK AND a CHARGE on the same play.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

That's the absolute worst situation with a double whistle. I've had a couple of these over the years. I don't hear my partner's whistle. I sell my call with a strong preliminary signal, and all of a sudden, as the players part like the Red Sea, I see my partner also giving a preliminary signal. Luckily, we've always had the same signal. Someday the signals won't be the same. We could pregame the heck out of this situation, but the bottom line would be that we would have go to the caseplay.

We had this happen in a game last week in a packed gym. Shooting foul, ball goes in, I'm the C, and the foul is from my side on a player on the block, partially in the lane.

I come up with a whistle, don't hear the L blowing on it at the same time, and look up to see him banging it home and already on his way to the table as I'm doing the same.

No big deal -- but I recognize that it was (1) probably my foul to get since the L reached across and (2) still my fault since I was an outside official and we constantly talk about the L having first crack in the lane.

It was loud, though - the gym was absolutely packed. On one foul I ended up having to tweet a few times to actually stop play.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by deecee

My personal feelings are that a BLARGE can not happen. The officials should get together and come to a conclusion on one or the other. Having a blarge IMO is the easy way out. But there is a very specific caseplay with instructions for what to do that must be followed. IMO they got it wrong and should look at the NCAA-W way of handling it.

You cannot have a BLOCK AND a CHARGE on the same play.

We could have a philosophical discussion about Schrodinger's Cat and its application to this situation, but I agree with you -- in real time we need to decide who is more responsible and go with that. Till the NFHS changes things to match the NCAAW, we need to follow the case play.

(The one thing I always ask in this situation is this -- we always praise officials for holding their preliminary and making sure there's only one call on the play. But what if that call is absolutely horrible? Why is one 100% wrong call better than 2 different calls -- at least one of them, then, is right.)

The only good thing about the NFHS/NCAAM way of handling it is what happens in NCAAW if both officials are stubborn and insist they are right? Does the third official get to break the tie? Does the R on the game decide (and there's a 2/3 chance he's involved in the call)? Do they poll the coaches and/or fans?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Rich

The only good thing about the NFHS/NCAAM way of handling it is what happens in NCAAW if both officials are stubborn and insist they are right? Does the third official get to break the tie? Does the R on the game decide (and there's a 2/3 chance he's involved in the call)? Do they poll the coaches and/or fans?

It has nothing to do with who is "right". It has everything to do with who's primary area the play is in...are there a few gray areas? Sure. But those conversations, in my experience, do not take very long.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

It has nothing to do with who is "right". It has everything to do with who's primary area the play is in...are there a few gray areas? Sure. But those conversations, in my experience, do not take very long.

They don't at that level because the officials are experienced and know the repercussions of getting into a long, drawn out discussion over it. They know that settling it quickly (regardless of whether they come out with a block or a charge) is the right thing for the game and for their credibility. They're embarrassed enough at that point.

Now, let's consider how this could play out in a HS game with officials who would actually argue about the call or be obstinate and get into a long discussion about this. How would THEY resolve things? Flip a coin?

At higher levels and in my games (because I feel I'm adequately aware of perception and its importance) I'm certain we could handle this the NCAAW way. I'm not sure about the garden variety freshman/JV game, though.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

They don't at that level because the officials are experienced and know the repercussions of getting into a long, drawn out discussion over it. They know that settling it quickly (regardless of whether they come out with a block or a charge) is the right thing for the game and for their credibility. They're embarrassed enough at that point.

Now, let's consider how this could play out in a HS game with officials who would actually argue about the call or be obstinate and get into a long discussion about this. How would THEY resolve things? Flip a coin?

At higher levels and in my games (because I feel I'm adequately aware of perception and its importance) I'm certain we could handle this the NCAAW way. I'm not sure about the garden variety freshman/JV game, though.

I totally disagree it is right for the game. You choose someone is going to suggest why you choose one call over the other. The fact that you give it to both and no one is going to be happy IMO is better as you are not just giving it to someone over the other and you will try to avoid the situation all together. That is also why it does not happen very often IMO. It happens, but not even once a season for most officials. I have had some situations where you could suggest it might have happen, but it was avoided. Just because you pick one of the calls does not mean someone is not going to be very happy or that they will not question the motives of the individuals making the decision.

Peace

[deecee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Just because you pick one of the calls does not mean someone is not going to be very happy or that they will not question the motives of the individuals making the decision.

I don't understand how this wouldn't apply to every other call in the game. Someone is ALWAYS unhappy.