Illinois H.S. post-game brawl

[JetMetFan]

East-Jefferson fight: IHSA to suspend 3 Jefferson starters, coach Todd Brannan - Sports - Rockford Register Star - Rockford, IL

The question regarding this fight is simple, at least to me: Do we really need mandated handshake lines after a game? The best thing that can happen is...nothing. This would be the worst.

[twocentsworth]

Other than 1 state (CT., I think), who "mandates" handshakes? I know Illinois (where this took place) doesn't....

[Bad Zebra]

This is getting disheartening. How many of these brawls are we seeing break out as the post-season begins...boys, girls, rural, urban, private, public, college, HS, fans, players...whatever? I don't remeber a season ending this violently, ever. It's like people have collectively lost their minds.

My experience with this sort of behavior has been limited to AAU in the past. Seems like it's spread like a virus and it's not getting better any time soon.

Maybe it's been like this for a long time, but it's better documented now?

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Other than 1 state (CT., I think), who "mandates" handshakes? I know Illinois (where this took place) doesn't....

Pretty sure Mass. is the state that mandates it. Billy will be along in a minute to confirm.

[Adam]

MA mandates the handshake be officiated by people with no jurisdiction to do so.

The line itself may not be mandated, but imagine the criticism that would ensue if a coach was to have his team skip it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

East-Jefferson fight: IHSA to suspend 3 Jefferson starters, coach Todd Brannan - Sports - Rockford Register Star - Rockford, IL

The question regarding this fight is simple, at least to me: Do we really need mandated handshake lines after a game? The best thing that can happen is...nothing. This would be the worst.

This was two teams in the same school district. The kids knew each other I am sure. The host school did not appear to have adequete security. There were no police on the site, which is crazy for most events like this. And as stated, Illinois does not require these handshakes or the requires the officials to hang around to watch after the game.

Peace

I have seen a handshake line (including the refs) at almost every soccer game I have ever been to. I wonder what the indices of fights breaking out during a soccer handshake line versus a basketball one.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This was two teams in the same school district. The kids knew each other I am sure. The host school did not appear to have adequate security. There were no police on the site, which is crazy for most events like this. And as stated, Illinois does not require these handshakes or the officials to hang around to watch after the game.

Peace

My mistake. I must have misread the article and got the impression handshakes were mandated in Illinois. I'm glad officials aren't required to stand around and watch.

Regardless, do we really need these post-game handshake lines? I remember living pretty well without them back in the Dark Ages. To your point, Jeff, if they're going to have them security has to get on the floor when the game ends. What is the law enforcement requirement at games? In NYC we can't start - or continue a game once it has started - if a school safety officer isn't in the gym. SSOs are unarmed members of the NYPD.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

My mistake. I must have misread the article and got the impression handshakes were mandated in Illinois. I'm glad officials aren't required to stand around and watch.

Regardless, do we really need these post-game handshake lines? I remember living pretty well without them back in the Dark Ages. To your point, Jeff, if they're going to have them security has to get on the floor when the game ends. What is the law enforcement requirement at games? In NYC we can't start - or continue a game once it has started - if a school safety officer isn't in the gym. SSOs are unarmed members of the NYPD.

It is seen as good sportsmanship, but no where is it required to do. If a team does not do it, it would be founded upon for sure. But nothing can be done to anyone outside of maybe the State Finals.

Also I also know of no security or police presence required. But obviously when you have hundreds or thousands of people, it would be nice to have some police presence. It is up to each school or community to decide how much it matters to them. But I would think two teams in the same community (not where the game was hosted BTW) and rivals on some level, you would be prepared for a rowdy crowd on some level. Most of the time nothing happens, but it is not out of the question if a fight occurs.

Peace

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by Adam

MA mandates the handshake be officiated by people with no jurisdiction to do so.

The line itself may not be mandated, but imagine the criticism that would ensue if a coach was to have his team skip it.

Massachusetts does require a handshake in all sports for high school games governed by the MIAA (the state athletic association). It may be suspended by the site manager (usually the athletic director) or game officials "if circumstances so warrant."

This is the what the MIAA says about this:

As always, common sense prevail. If a game official or game site administrator feels that this initiative should not be followed due to concerns which arise during the contest, or with crowd control issues, the handshake protocol may be suspended.

Since 2008, basketball officials have been required to monitor the handshake. If there is a fight or other unsporting behavior, we have no authority to penalize it as part of the game that just finished, but are required to write a report and penalize it under MIAA rules (which include subsequent game suspensions, etc.)

I don't know how many times the handshake has been "suspended" or how many times officials have written these reports in the last five years....but it is so common (and so civil) now that no official thinks twice about it any more.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Other than 1 state (CT., I think), who "mandates" handshakes?

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

Billy will be along in a minute to confirm.

Handshakes are not mandated in Connecticut. Neither are fist bumps. Curtsies are encouraged, but not mandated, in girls games.

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

My experience with this sort of behavior has been limited to AAU in the past. Seems like it's spread like a virus and it's not getting better any time soon.

As a ref and former bball coach (still coach other sports) I strongly believe this is where it starts. Over the last 10 to 15 years the prima donna attitudes in the AAU promoted/allowed/encouraged by coaches & parents is proliferating "real" basketball. The kids think they can act this same way in our gyms and then they and they're parents flip out when they don't get heir way. Whether its poor loosers or ungraceful winners the sport is suffering for it and I wish state organizations, the AAU, and even upper leagues like college and the pros would clamp down on poor sportsmanship like this.

[amusedofficial]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Over the last 10 to 15 years the prima donna attitudes in the AAU promoted/allowed/encouraged by coaches & parents is proliferating "real" basketball. The kids think they can act this same way in our gyms and then they and they're parents flip out when they don't get heir way.

Absolutely correct as to the players.

The controversy over officials standing by for a post-game handshake in Mass. was a lot of hooey perpetrated by officials who, unfortunately, also forget their place and are more interested in emulating their NBE and NCAA heroes, who run off the court after the horn, than in a simple act to promote sportsmanship in games involving kids.

As an excuse, they tried to say insurance wouldn't cover refs for the handshake, even though by its very terms it covers officials during the entire time they have jurisdiction, which, by rule, ends when they leave the visual confines. From what I hear from guys and gals from Mass with whom I work here in Live Free or Die land, standing and watching two groups of adolescents shake hands after an athletic contest has been spectacularly uneventful in all sports, not just hoops.

A question to which I don't have an answer, is whether this brawl would have happened if the officials were still on the court watching the handshake-- not because the officials would have been called on to stop it, but because their presence may have instilled the idea that the event was not "over" and thereby muted any inclination by players with a little too much AAU under their belts to "get physical."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

A question to which I don't have an answer, is whether this brawl would have happened if the officials were still on the court watching the handshake-- not because the officials would have been called on to stop it, but because their presence may have instilled the idea that the event was not "over" and thereby muted any inclination by players with a little too much AAU under their belts to "get physical."

If the brawl happened with coaches and parents watching, what makes you think officials would have been able to stop these kids from a fight if the officials were still on the floor?

Peace

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the brawl happened with coaches and parents watching, what makes you think officials would have been able to stop these kids from a fight if the officials were still on the floor?

Peace

Agreed. If they're going to fight, they're going to fight regardless of whether we're there.

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

The controversy over officials standing by for a post-game handshake in Mass. was a lot of hooey perpetrated by officials who, unfortunately, also forget their place and are more interested in emulating their NBE and NCAA heroes, who run off the court after the horn, than in a simple act to promote sportsmanship in games involving kids.

Bear in mind we're as much of a target during post-game situations as players. Plus we have those nice, striped shirts on which make us pretty easy to see.

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Since 2008, basketball officials have been required to monitor the handshake. If there is a fight or other unsporting behavior, we have no authority to penalize it as part of the game that just finished, but are required to write a report and penalize it under MIAA rules (which include subsequent game suspensions, etc.).

This I don't understand. The officials watch the handshake but can't penalize any unsporting behavior, which is contrary to the rule regarding when jurisdiction ends. If you can't penalize there's no reason to be out there. Let game management deal with any potential headaches.