Illinois H.S. post-game brawl

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

A question to which I don't have an answer, is whether this brawl would have happened if the officials were still on the court watching the handshake-- not because the officials would have been called on to stop it, but because their presence may have instilled the idea that the event was not "over" and thereby muted any inclination by players with a little too much AAU under their belts to "get physical."

If the brawl happened with coaches and parents watching, what makes you think officials would have been able to stop these kids from a fight if the officials were still on the floor?

Peace

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the brawl happened with coaches and parents watching, what makes you think officials would have been able to stop these kids from a fight if the officials were still on the floor?

Peace

Agreed. If they're going to fight, they're going to fight regardless of whether we're there.

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

The controversy over officials standing by for a post-game handshake in Mass. was a lot of hooey perpetrated by officials who, unfortunately, also forget their place and are more interested in emulating their NBE and NCAA heroes, who run off the court after the horn, than in a simple act to promote sportsmanship in games involving kids.

Bear in mind we're as much of a target during post-game situations as players. Plus we have those nice, striped shirts on which make us pretty easy to see.

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Since 2008, basketball officials have been required to monitor the handshake. If there is a fight or other unsporting behavior, we have no authority to penalize it as part of the game that just finished, but are required to write a report and penalize it under MIAA rules (which include subsequent game suspensions, etc.).

This I don't understand. The officials watch the handshake but can't penalize any unsporting behavior, which is contrary to the rule regarding when jurisdiction ends. If you can't penalize there's no reason to be out there. Let game management deal with any potential headaches.

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the brawl happened with coaches and parents watching, what makes you think officials would have been able to stop these kids from a fight if the officials were still on the floor?

Maybe it wouldn't make a difference, but maybe it would...

I still work 20-30 games each winter for the rec league I started in years ago and we never leave the court. At the end of each game we stand and watch the kids go by and shake hands. I can work 5 games in a row ages 10 - 16 and have never seen a problem.

Of course, I am not saying this would always be the case in "real" basketball but I am in the camp that believes the mere presence of referees may help stem the urge to act/react. Most players are trained to respond to the whistle so a very loud crack at the first sign of trouble might be just enough.

In addition, penalties for these types of unporting acts need to be harsh. Players, fans, coaches and schools should be held to very high standards that include multiple game consequences. As a former coach, I never had these problems because I nipped them in the bud early. But, in today's game where coaches are trying to manage a bad apple because he is a super star, I can guarantee the decision of whether or not to keep a kid on the team would be made a lot easier if I were held accountable for ALL of his actions and might be suspended a few games if he earned a write up after thegame was over.

Aswith all of the other rules & procedures in basketballl. When it starts getting called and getting handled, players and coaches will adjust and the problem may mostly go away.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Maybe it wouldn't make a difference, but maybe it would...

Kids do not listen to use when we give them a "sportsmanship" talk. What the hell makes you think we are really going to make that much of a difference over people that they have to deal with long after that game is over? If a parent that raises a child does not instill values in them, you think some stranger they might have never seen before is all of a sudden going to make that much of a difference? Sorry, I think officials are important, but we are not that damn important.

Originally Posted by Rich1

I still work 20-30 games each winter for the rec league I started in years ago and we never leave the court. At the end of each game we stand and watch the kids go by and shake hands. I can work 5 games in a row ages 10 - 16 and have never seen a problem.

Please, let us not compare rec games to this issue? I have worked several hundred games and never had a single fight after the game was over. I did have my first fight this year BTW and we were on the court when everything blew up. Our presence is not that damn important. And I am an official that does multple sports and never had a fight after the game in any situation in any sport as well. And in football things are much more violent and contensious than basketball will ever be in most cases.

Originally Posted by Rich1

Of course, I am not saying this would always be the case in "real" basketball but I am in the camp that believes the mere presence of referees may help stem the urge to act/react. Most players are trained to respond to the whistle so a very loud crack at the first sign of trouble might be just enough.

In addition, penalties for these types of unporting acts need to be harsh. Players, fans, coaches and schools should be held to very high standards that include multiple game consequences. As a former coach, I never had these problems because I nipped them in the bud early. But, in today's game where coaches are trying to manage a bad apple because he is a super star, I can guarantee the decision of whether or not to keep a kid on the team would be made a lot easier if I were held accountable for ALL of his actions and might be suspended a few games if he earned a write up after thegame was over.

Aswith all of the other rules & procedures in basketballl. When it starts getting called and getting handled, players and coaches will adjust and the problem may mostly go away.

Well in this case a coach and many players were penalized.

And BTW, the team that advanced and was in the fight, they lost big last night (77-29). So it appears that the players they lost or the coach not being there was not a good thing. And those kids will have that on them for a long time and even longer if they were Seniors.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Maybe it wouldn't make a difference, but maybe it would...

I still work 20-30 games each winter for the rec league I started in years ago and we never leave the court. At the end of each game we stand and watch the kids go by and shake hands. I can work 5 games in a row ages 10 - 16 and have never seen a problem.

Of course, I am not saying this would always be the case in "real" basketball but I am in the camp that believes the mere presence of referees may help stem the urge to act/react. Most players are trained to respond to the whistle so a very loud crack at the first sign of trouble might be just enough.

In addition, penalties for these types of unporting acts need to be harsh. Players, fans, coaches and schools should be held to very high standards that include multiple game consequences. As a former coach, I never had these problems because I nipped them in the bud early. But, in today's game where coaches are trying to manage a bad apple because he is a super star, I can guarantee the decision of whether or not to keep a kid on the team would be made a lot easier if I were held accountable for ALL of his actions and might be suspended a few games if he earned a write up after thegame was over.

Aswith all of the other rules & procedures in basketballl. When it starts getting called and getting handled, players and coaches will adjust and the problem may mostly go away.

You're missing something. I'm a referee, not a babysitter. Once my duties are over as a referee, I'm not interested in becoming a babysitter for even a minute after the game is over.

The world has gotten insane. The gym is full of parents, administrators, and coaches and yet some people think that isn't enough. In those cases where it isn't enough, those people need to look inside - not expect that we'll stick around and police what they aren't willing or able to.

[BillyMac]

If somebody in authority wants me to stay and watch kids shake hands after a game, then they better be ready to give me all the powers that a basketball official is supposed to have until he, or she, leaves the visual confines of the court.

If they're going to "castrate" me by taking away my basketball official "superpowers", then me watching the hand shakes after a game just ain't gonna happen. It will be, "Bye bye", and I'm on my way to a nice hot shower.

To my colleagues in Massachusetts: I'll keep praying for you.