Illinois H.S. post-game brawl

[Bad Zebra]

This is getting disheartening. How many of these brawls are we seeing break out as the post-season begins...boys, girls, rural, urban, private, public, college, HS, fans, players...whatever? I don't remeber a season ending this violently, ever. It's like people have collectively lost their minds.

My experience with this sort of behavior has been limited to AAU in the past. Seems like it's spread like a virus and it's not getting better any time soon.

Maybe it's been like this for a long time, but it's better documented now?

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

My experience with this sort of behavior has been limited to AAU in the past. Seems like it's spread like a virus and it's not getting better any time soon.

As a ref and former bball coach (still coach other sports) I strongly believe this is where it starts. Over the last 10 to 15 years the prima donna attitudes in the AAU promoted/allowed/encouraged by coaches & parents is proliferating "real" basketball. The kids think they can act this same way in our gyms and then they and they're parents flip out when they don't get heir way. Whether its poor loosers or ungraceful winners the sport is suffering for it and I wish state organizations, the AAU, and even upper leagues like college and the pros would clamp down on poor sportsmanship like this.

[amusedofficial]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Over the last 10 to 15 years the prima donna attitudes in the AAU promoted/allowed/encouraged by coaches & parents is proliferating "real" basketball. The kids think they can act this same way in our gyms and then they and they're parents flip out when they don't get heir way.

Absolutely correct as to the players.

The controversy over officials standing by for a post-game handshake in Mass. was a lot of hooey perpetrated by officials who, unfortunately, also forget their place and are more interested in emulating their NBE and NCAA heroes, who run off the court after the horn, than in a simple act to promote sportsmanship in games involving kids.

As an excuse, they tried to say insurance wouldn't cover refs for the handshake, even though by its very terms it covers officials during the entire time they have jurisdiction, which, by rule, ends when they leave the visual confines. From what I hear from guys and gals from Mass with whom I work here in Live Free or Die land, standing and watching two groups of adolescents shake hands after an athletic contest has been spectacularly uneventful in all sports, not just hoops.

A question to which I don't have an answer, is whether this brawl would have happened if the officials were still on the court watching the handshake-- not because the officials would have been called on to stop it, but because their presence may have instilled the idea that the event was not "over" and thereby muted any inclination by players with a little too much AAU under their belts to "get physical."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

A question to which I don't have an answer, is whether this brawl would have happened if the officials were still on the court watching the handshake-- not because the officials would have been called on to stop it, but because their presence may have instilled the idea that the event was not "over" and thereby muted any inclination by players with a little too much AAU under their belts to "get physical."

If the brawl happened with coaches and parents watching, what makes you think officials would have been able to stop these kids from a fight if the officials were still on the floor?

Peace

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the brawl happened with coaches and parents watching, what makes you think officials would have been able to stop these kids from a fight if the officials were still on the floor?

Peace

Agreed. If they're going to fight, they're going to fight regardless of whether we're there.

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

The controversy over officials standing by for a post-game handshake in Mass. was a lot of hooey perpetrated by officials who, unfortunately, also forget their place and are more interested in emulating their NBE and NCAA heroes, who run off the court after the horn, than in a simple act to promote sportsmanship in games involving kids.

Bear in mind we're as much of a target during post-game situations as players. Plus we have those nice, striped shirts on which make us pretty easy to see.

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Since 2008, basketball officials have been required to monitor the handshake. If there is a fight or other unsporting behavior, we have no authority to penalize it as part of the game that just finished, but are required to write a report and penalize it under MIAA rules (which include subsequent game suspensions, etc.).

This I don't understand. The officials watch the handshake but can't penalize any unsporting behavior, which is contrary to the rule regarding when jurisdiction ends. If you can't penalize there's no reason to be out there. Let game management deal with any potential headaches.

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If the brawl happened with coaches and parents watching, what makes you think officials would have been able to stop these kids from a fight if the officials were still on the floor?

Maybe it wouldn't make a difference, but maybe it would...

I still work 20-30 games each winter for the rec league I started in years ago and we never leave the court. At the end of each game we stand and watch the kids go by and shake hands. I can work 5 games in a row ages 10 - 16 and have never seen a problem.

Of course, I am not saying this would always be the case in "real" basketball but I am in the camp that believes the mere presence of referees may help stem the urge to act/react. Most players are trained to respond to the whistle so a very loud crack at the first sign of trouble might be just enough.

In addition, penalties for these types of unporting acts need to be harsh. Players, fans, coaches and schools should be held to very high standards that include multiple game consequences. As a former coach, I never had these problems because I nipped them in the bud early. But, in today's game where coaches are trying to manage a bad apple because he is a super star, I can guarantee the decision of whether or not to keep a kid on the team would be made a lot easier if I were held accountable for ALL of his actions and might be suspended a few games if he earned a write up after thegame was over.

Aswith all of the other rules & procedures in basketballl. When it starts getting called and getting handled, players and coaches will adjust and the problem may mostly go away.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Maybe it wouldn't make a difference, but maybe it would...

Kids do not listen to use when we give them a "sportsmanship" talk. What the hell makes you think we are really going to make that much of a difference over people that they have to deal with long after that game is over? If a parent that raises a child does not instill values in them, you think some stranger they might have never seen before is all of a sudden going to make that much of a difference? Sorry, I think officials are important, but we are not that damn important.

Originally Posted by Rich1

I still work 20-30 games each winter for the rec league I started in years ago and we never leave the court. At the end of each game we stand and watch the kids go by and shake hands. I can work 5 games in a row ages 10 - 16 and have never seen a problem.

Please, let us not compare rec games to this issue? I have worked several hundred games and never had a single fight after the game was over. I did have my first fight this year BTW and we were on the court when everything blew up. Our presence is not that damn important. And I am an official that does multple sports and never had a fight after the game in any situation in any sport as well. And in football things are much more violent and contensious than basketball will ever be in most cases.

Originally Posted by Rich1

Of course, I am not saying this would always be the case in "real" basketball but I am in the camp that believes the mere presence of referees may help stem the urge to act/react. Most players are trained to respond to the whistle so a very loud crack at the first sign of trouble might be just enough.

In addition, penalties for these types of unporting acts need to be harsh. Players, fans, coaches and schools should be held to very high standards that include multiple game consequences. As a former coach, I never had these problems because I nipped them in the bud early. But, in today's game where coaches are trying to manage a bad apple because he is a super star, I can guarantee the decision of whether or not to keep a kid on the team would be made a lot easier if I were held accountable for ALL of his actions and might be suspended a few games if he earned a write up after thegame was over.

Aswith all of the other rules & procedures in basketballl. When it starts getting called and getting handled, players and coaches will adjust and the problem may mostly go away.

Well in this case a coach and many players were penalized.

And BTW, the team that advanced and was in the fight, they lost big last night (77-29). So it appears that the players they lost or the coach not being there was not a good thing. And those kids will have that on them for a long time and even longer if they were Seniors.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Maybe it wouldn't make a difference, but maybe it would...

I still work 20-30 games each winter for the rec league I started in years ago and we never leave the court. At the end of each game we stand and watch the kids go by and shake hands. I can work 5 games in a row ages 10 - 16 and have never seen a problem.

Of course, I am not saying this would always be the case in "real" basketball but I am in the camp that believes the mere presence of referees may help stem the urge to act/react. Most players are trained to respond to the whistle so a very loud crack at the first sign of trouble might be just enough.

In addition, penalties for these types of unporting acts need to be harsh. Players, fans, coaches and schools should be held to very high standards that include multiple game consequences. As a former coach, I never had these problems because I nipped them in the bud early. But, in today's game where coaches are trying to manage a bad apple because he is a super star, I can guarantee the decision of whether or not to keep a kid on the team would be made a lot easier if I were held accountable for ALL of his actions and might be suspended a few games if he earned a write up after thegame was over.

Aswith all of the other rules & procedures in basketballl. When it starts getting called and getting handled, players and coaches will adjust and the problem may mostly go away.

You're missing something. I'm a referee, not a babysitter. Once my duties are over as a referee, I'm not interested in becoming a babysitter for even a minute after the game is over.

The world has gotten insane. The gym is full of parents, administrators, and coaches and yet some people think that isn't enough. In those cases where it isn't enough, those people need to look inside - not expect that we'll stick around and police what they aren't willing or able to.

[BillyMac]

If somebody in authority wants me to stay and watch kids shake hands after a game, then they better be ready to give me all the powers that a basketball official is supposed to have until he, or she, leaves the visual confines of the court.

If they're going to "castrate" me by taking away my basketball official "superpowers", then me watching the hand shakes after a game just ain't gonna happen. It will be, "Bye bye", and I'm on my way to a nice hot shower.

To my colleagues in Massachusetts: I'll keep praying for you.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

Absolutely correct as to the players.

The controversy over officials standing by for a post-game handshake in Mass. was a lot of hooey perpetrated by officials who, unfortunately, also forget their place and are more interested in emulating their NBE and NCAA heroes, who run off the court after the horn, than ...

IOW, we can't get coaches, administrators, and parents to do their jobs, so officials are primadonnas if they don't do it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

Absolutely correct as to the players.

The controversy over officials standing by for a post-game handshake in Mass. was a lot of hooey perpetrated by officials who, unfortunately, also forget their place and are more interested in emulating their NBE and NCAA heroes, who run off the court after the horn, than in a simple act to promote sportsmanship in games involving kids.

As an excuse, they tried to say insurance wouldn't cover refs for the handshake, even though by its very terms it covers officials during the entire time they have jurisdiction, which, by rule, ends when they leave the visual confines. From what I hear from guys and gals from Mass with whom I work here in Live Free or Die land, standing and watching two groups of adolescents shake hands after an athletic contest has been spectacularly uneventful in all sports, not just hoops.

A question to which I don't have an answer, is whether this brawl would have happened if the officials were still on the court watching the handshake-- not because the officials would have been called on to stop it, but because their presence may have instilled the idea that the event was not "over" and thereby muted any inclination by players with a little too much AAU under their belts to "get physical."

"Forget their place?" Really. Could you elaborate?

Also, didn't Mass specifically state their jurisdiction ends when the score is confirmed, whichi why the officials cannot call any technical fouls for actions that occur during the handshake? They want to have their cake and eat it, and apparently NASO made an allowance, but that doesn't negate the concerns at the time.

I'm more concerned with the targeting of officials. The very games where supervision is most required are games where we are most apt to be the target of some idiot's wrath.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by Adam

Also, didn't Mass specifically state their jurisdiction ends when the score is confirmed, whichi why the officials cannot call any technical fouls for actions that occur during the handshake? They want to have their cake and eat it, and apparently NASO made an allowance, but that doesn't negate the concerns at the time.

I'm more concerned with the targeting of officials. The very games where supervision is most required are games where we are most apt to be the target of some idiot's wrath.

Yes. I presume it's a typo in your response, but the NFHS sent a ruling that the officials' jurisdiction for the game ends when the referee approves the score. Technical fouls for fighting, taunting, etc. can still be called ... with suspensions of one, two or more games depending on what happened. These suspensions are the same as if the activity happened during the game.

For those who say that's not our job, we have to write the same reports for fighting, taunting, etc. that happens during the game. The MIAA says our "job" extends an extra minute or so.

Officials are not supposed to be on the court alone. Game management stands with us, usually watching our backs. But after so many years of this, it is so "normal" here that fewer ADs are standing with us for a normal game. When it's a "hot" game, they are there and will escort us off the court after the handshake.

Those from other states can say all you want about this procedure, but it is not a debate here. It is required of high school officials. It doesn't stop post-game fights. There was one a few weeks ago involving two Boston teams that resulted in them being suspended from the city championships (they were the top two girls teams). But after six years, I think it has done what the MIAA wanted. It has filtered down to youth leagues, so players, coaches and parents have seen it for many years before they get to high school. I understand it feels strange to most officials here, but it's just not a big deal any more.

[Amesman]

Some things (i.e. a brawl) you might not ever be able to prevent 100%.

But no security?! Sounds like somebody with a desk deserved to be suspended, or at least reprimanded, whatever. Talk about dereliction of duty (whether or not it's codified as "must").

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Yes. I presume it's a typo in your response, but the NFHS sent a ruling that the officials' jurisdiction for the game ends when the referee approves the score. Technical fouls for fighting, taunting, etc. can still be called ... with suspensions of one, two or more games depending on what happened. These suspensions are the same as if the activity happened during the game.

For those who say that's not our job, we have to write the same reports for fighting, taunting, etc. that happens during the game. The MIAA says our "job" extends an extra minute or so.

Officials are not supposed to be on the court alone. Game management stands with us, usually watching our backs. But after so many years of this, it is so "normal" here that fewer ADs are standing with us for a normal game. When it's a "hot" game, they are there and will escort us off the court after the handshake.

Those from other states can say all you want about this procedure, but it is not a debate here. It is required of high school officials. It doesn't stop post-game fights. There was one a few weeks ago involving two Boston teams that resulted in them being suspended from the city championships (they were the top two girls teams). But after six years, I think it has done what the MIAA wanted. It has filtered down to youth leagues, so players, coaches and parents have seen it for many years before they get to high school. I understand it feels strange to most officials here, but it's just not a big deal any more.

Can you shoot free throws if the team who just won by a point does something stupid in the handshake line? That was my point about calling technical fouls. Actual, real, immediate consequences for stupidity.

I just don't see the point. There's nothing the officials' presence accomplishes that wouldn't be just as easily accomplished by other means that don't involve extending your presence beyond your jurisdiction. Post game fights can always be reported to the state with evidence of a mandatory video tape. GM can watch over this.

I recognize it's become the new normal for you, but I also know officials in MA who have quit hs ball over it after getting assaulted in post game (while standing right next to the AD). If you want to work HS ball in MA, you don't have a choice, that doesn't make it the right way to go about it.

[APG]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

Absolutely correct as to the players.

The controversy over officials standing by for a post-game handshake in Mass. was a lot of hooey perpetrated by officials who, unfortunately, also forget their place and are more interested in emulating their NBE and NCAA heroes, who run off the court after the horn, than in a simple act to promote sportsmanship in games involving kids.

NBA officials don't run off the court after the horn.

So are officials in 49/50 states just emulating their NCAA heroes? Do they not know "their place?" How does watching a bunch of handshakes promoting sportsmanship? If a kid or team is pissed off and wants to do something in the line, it's going to happen whether an official is there or not.