Loose Ball Foul?

[MathReferee]

I was in a conversation with a coach following a game and he asked about the following situation. Basically, he is coaching a team that is not incredibly talented but they play hard from start to finish.

Situation: During a loose ball, A1 and B1 are running in straight paths. A1 dives for the loose ball, following his straight path, while B1 remains upright in his path. B1 trips over A1 and goes down to the floor.

The coaches complaint is that his player (A1 in the scenario) is often called for the foul and he feels they are being penalized for diving for the ball. If both players had remained upright and collided this would be a no call. My explanation was that in this situation it could be a possible no call if both players truly remain on their path and neither go into the other player's path.

I think the reality is that most of the time the foul will be called on A1 regardless, but why? What verbiage would you use to explain a blocking foul on A1 in this scenario?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by MathReferee

I was in a conversation with a coach following a game and he asked about the following situation. Basically, he is coaching a team that is not incredibly talented but they play hard from start to finish.

Situation: During a loose ball, A1 and B1 are running in straight paths. A1 dives for the loose ball, following his straight path, while B1 remains upright in his path. B1 trips over A1 and goes down to the floor.

The coaches complaint is that his player (A1 in the scenario) is often called for the foul and he feels they are being penalized for diving for the ball. If both players had remained upright and collided this would be a no call. My explanation was that in this situation it could be a possible no call if both players truly remain on their path and neither go into the other player's path.

I think the reality is that most of the time the foul will be called on A1 regardless, but why? What verbiage would you use to explain a blocking foul on A1 in this scenario?

f A1 and B1 stayed in their paths, which sound like they run parallel to each other, how did B1 end up falling over A1? Sounds to me like at least one of those players veered off of their path and into the other. The answer to that question will let you know who to call the foul on.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

f A1 and B1 stayed in their paths, which sound like they run parallel to each other, how did B1 end up falling over A1? Sounds to me like at least one of those players veered off of their path and into the other. The answer to that question will let you know who to call the foul on.

Not at all true. Two separate vectors often cross, especially when a single ball is involved.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by MathReferee

I was in a conversation with a coach following a game and he asked about the following situation. Basically, he is coaching a team that is not incredibly talented but they play hard from start to finish.

Situation: During a loose ball, A1 and B1 are running in straight paths. A1 dives for the loose ball, following his straight path, while B1 remains upright in his path. B1 trips over A1 and goes down to the floor.

The coaches complaint is that his player (A1 in the scenario) is often called for the foul and he feels they are being penalized for diving for the ball. If both players had remained upright and collided this would be a no call. My explanation was that in this situation it could be a possible no call if both players truly remain on their path and neither go into the other player's path.

I think the reality is that most of the time the foul will be called on A1 regardless, but why? What verbiage would you use to explain a blocking foul on A1 in this scenario?

Because A1 is not in his vertical space, and not stationary; unless A1 is no longer moving after his dive. Otherwise, A1 tripped B1, not B1 tripped over A1.

[JRutledge]

For me, I think it matters more who got to the spot first? If the diver got to the spot first, I am not likely calling a foul because someone tripped over him. If the diver slides into the path of the opponent, that is totally different. Again, it really matters who was where first to call a foul. I have often not called any foul in these situations when no one was really disadvantaged. And this is really no a LGP issue IMO either.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MathReferee

I was in a conversation with a coach following a game and he asked about the following situation. Basically, he is coaching a team that is not incredibly talented but they play hard from start to finish.

Situation: During a loose ball, A1 and B1 are running in straight paths. A1 dives for the loose ball, following his straight path, while B1 remains upright in his path. B1 trips over A1 and goes down to the floor.

The coaches complaint is that his player (A1 in the scenario) is often called for the foul and he feels they are being penalized for diving for the ball. If both players had remained upright and collided this would be a no call. My explanation was that in this situation it could be a possible no call if both players truly remain on their path and neither go into the other player's path.

I think the reality is that most of the time the foul will be called on A1 regardless, but why? What verbiage would you use to explain a blocking foul on A1 in this scenario?

"He tripped him."

[MathReferee]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

f A1 and B1 stayed in their paths, which sound like they run parallel to each other, how did B1 end up falling over A1? Sounds to me like at least one of those players veered off of their path and into the other. The answer to that question will let you know who to call the foul on.

The scenario is more of two players running perpendicular to each other, as opposed to parallel.

100!

[MathReferee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

For me, I think it matters more who got to the spot first? If the diver got to the spot first, I am not likely calling a foul because someone tripped over him. If the diver slides into the path of the opponent, that is totally different. Again, it really matters who was where first to call a foul. I have often not called any foul in these situations when no one was really disadvantaged. And this is really no a LGP issue IMO either.

Peace

Thanks.

[SmokeEater]

+1 for BNR and JRut these are very good expalnations that are easy to understand. However, IMO they may be too involved to use during the game and would require conversation at half or after the game if so desired.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

+1 for BNR and JRut these are very good expalnations that are easy to understand. However, IMO they may be too involved to use during the game and would require conversation at half or after the game if so desired.

If you are referring to a coach, you are absolutely correct. I would never explain that much to a coach during a game as we would not have very much time. I might say, "Coach he got to the ball first and did not trip your player." Or something along that lines.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

+1 for BNR and JRut these are very good expalnations that are easy to understand. However, IMO they may be too involved to use during the game and would require conversation at half or after the game if so desired.

During a game, at most, "He tripped him."
If he wants to burn time during hafltime, he might get 15 seconds depending on his approach and demeanor.
After the game? Not a chance (with the understanding that MS and summer games may require a different approach).

[Sharpshooternes]

I have been having a hard time with another similar situation. a1 dives for a loose ball and is still laying down. B1 basically lands on top of A1 and tries for the ball. I think landing on top of some one is a foul but I am getting a ton of crap from coaches, whether the ball is in possession or not, about it being a loose ball so it can't be a foul.
Any opinions? Is there a difference between a loose ball foul or any other player in control foul?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Adam

Not at all true. Two separate vectors often cross, especially when a single ball is involved.

So they are not parallel paths, meaning I misunderstood the OP. Then it's a matter of who got there first, and did the player that got there first move out of their space and cause contact.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

I have been having a hard time with another similar situation. a1 dives for a loose ball and is still laying down. B1 basically lands on top of A1 and tries for the ball. I think landing on top of some one is a foul but I am getting a ton of crap from coaches, whether the ball is in possession or not, about it being a loose ball so it can't be a foul.
Any opinions? Is there a difference between a loose ball foul or any other player in control foul?

Never a reason to doubt your rules knowledge.

Based on this idiotic coaching logic, during loose balls can players:

• Punch other players?
• Shove players in the back?
• Trip other players?
• Tackle other players?
• Grab another player by the arm to prevent them from getting the loose ball?

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

a1 dives for a loose ball and is still laying down. B1 basically lands on top of A1 and tries for the ball. I think landing on top of some one is a foul but I am getting a ton of crap from coaches, whether the ball is in possession or not, about it being a loose ball so it can't be a foul.

1. Don't worry about the coaches giving you crap. Most of them know nothing about rules. Many will complain whenever a call goes against them regardless as to whether or not it was the correct call.

2. You are correct this is a foul on B1 and should be called.

3. If you have access to John Adams NCAA-M weekly video bulletins or know somebody that does checkout video 8 or 9. There is a play involving North Carolina and I believe either Wake Forest or Georgia Tech where the NC player has gained control of a loose ball while on the floor, the opposing player dives on top of him (should have been a foul), and then the NC player jacks the defender with an elbow. Foul on NC player was definitely a F1 and probably a F2. Good chance it would not have happened if the officials had called the first foul.