loose ball

[kenlopez]

1st and 10 from A 20. Quarterback gets the snap, takes two step back and is ganged tackled. The umpire comes rushing in saying: "its done, its over, roll off". Meanwhile the ball had became loose and is sitting behind the pile. No whistle were blown. B-87 sees the the ball picks it up and runs it in for a touchdown. A's coach meets with referee and says his boys stopped becuase the umpire said it was over.

What do we have?

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by kenlopez
1st and 10 from A 20. Quarterback gets the snap, takes two step back and is ganged tackled. The umpire comes rushing in saying: "its done, its over, roll off". Meanwhile the ball had became loose and is sitting behind the pile. No whistle were blown. B-87 sees the the ball picks it up and runs it in for a touchdown. A's coach meets with referee and says his boys stopped becuase the umpire said it was over.

What do we have?

Technically the U was correct, since the QB no longer had the ball, B should not be holding him down

If the U is not prepared to blow his whistle, he should remain quiet.

[dh898]

I have read and talked with many other officials. On this forum I've read that an umpire never whistles the whistle. I've read on this forum that sometimes a whistle isn't blown on numerous plays. I've been told by my association that the whistle does not end the play, the play ends when the ball becomes dead.

I would say on this play the ball is dead. A's ball 2nd down at spot of forward progress. What other opinions do you have?

[irefky]

where was the R and wings? No whistle, ball is alive from my point. When I work the U, and I see the ball is dead, I raise my hand to signal to the wings that the ball is dead but at times I use my finger whistle to blow it dead and raise the hand at same time.

[mcrowder]

Y'all are missing the question. Obviously, U should have kept his mouth shut until he either A) heard a whistle, or B) actually saw the person in possession of the ball touching the ground. On that, I believe we can all agree.

The question is, however, if this DID happen, would you treat it like the play was over, like an IW, or play on? Personally, I'd prefer to see this handled like an IW. The umpire directing traffic telling kids what to do IS equivalent to him blowing a whistle.

[BulldogMcC]

As the U, I will blow it dead if

1) I clearly see it in player possession
2) I clearly see that the player in possession is down
3) I have not heard a whistle from my wings or R.

While I say I never talk to the pile, I have. We had a game two weeks ago in a very dark stadium. The wings & R could not see the ball on many of the dive plays and we were very slow on our whistles. What happened many times is the wings held a spot where they thought the ball carrier was down and I would start digging in the pile 7-9 players to make sure the ball was still there. Once I or the R saw the ball somewhere in the pile, I don't care who had it, it was A's ball where my wings were marking it. Much like if no one sees a touchdown, it is short, if no one sees a fumble, it aint. They can wrestle the ball all they want in the pile but I will not award it to B unless I or one of the other officials have seen a live ball come loose. While I was digging, I was tapping players on the shoulder telling them to get off the pile. I never said the play was over or it was done. Both coaches understood why we did what we did because they hate IW as much as we do.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by kenlopez
1st and 10 from A 20. Quarterback gets the snap, takes two step back and is ganged tackled. The umpire comes rushing in saying: "its done, its over, roll off". Meanwhile the ball had became loose and is sitting behind the pile. No whistle were blown. B-87 sees the the ball picks it up and runs it in for a touchdown. A's coach meets with referee and says his boys stopped becuase the umpire said it was over.

What do we have?

We have A's ball at the spot the ball was sitting. 4-2-2-e-2 the ball becomes dead when any loose ball is on the ground motionless and no player attempts to secure possession.....that is what I would use allthough I would prefer to have somone on the crew either see the fumble or rule forward progess had stopped...

[Forksref]

You certainly can't have a TD because nearly everyone came to a stop and then the ball was scooped up. Treat it like an IW and move on. AND, have a talk with the U. I told my crew many times this year, let the play kill itself. They are gradually learning this. Whistles are a help, but you can invoke the "dead by rule" judgment in some cases when the whistle is late.

[mcrowder]

cmat - that rule is for when a ball is motionless for much longer than illustrated in this play.

Bulldog, I see your point, but don't think that was the intent of this play. Maybe I'm reading more into the sitch than was originally intimated, but I'm seeing this a a situation where R and HL/LJ did not blow the whistle because they DID see the fumble. U did not, and began unpiling people prematurely... hence my desire to treat this as IW.

[WyMike]

On the surface my ruling if and when I ever WH would be, A retains the ball either at the spot of the loose ball where U verbally declared the "it's (play) done, it's over", or A can replay the down. Treating it similar to an IW.

If an official lost/broke his whistle during a play, a verbal communication should suffice in place of a whistle.

Rule 1.1.6 states... The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in teh spirit of good sportsmanship, on any situation not specifically covered in the rules. The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.

Sounds like a "catch-all" to me.

WM

[l3will]

In the original situation, did anyone see the ball come loose?
Did the WH or one of the wings know for sure that the ball had come loose before the QB was down?

My take is that since no one blew a whistle, the WH and wings did not see it in player control when the QB went down. That is different than seeing the ball actually come loose prior to the QB going down.

Just bringing it up since I think a lot of us do not blow the whistle when there is a big pile up and we don't see the ball.

Had a rookie line judge two weeks ago who froze on a loose ball and did not blow the ball dead when A recovered the ball while laying on the ground after a fumble. This resulted in a wrestling match in which B finally ended up with the ball. Even though B had the ball when the whistle was finally blown A retained possession, because the line judge then related that A had the ball in control while laying on the ground. Needless to say the B coach wanted an explanation.

[mikesears]

How about this one?

Team A fakes a dive play up the middle and a pile of players lands at the U's feet. He yells, "it's over, play is dead, it's over!"

Meanwhile, QB pitches the ball to another back who runs around the outside and scores. The only people who stopped were those players who thought the ball was handed to the first back.

How do you handle this?

[irefky]

Originally posted by mikesears
How about this one?

Team A fakes a dive play up the middle and a pile of players lands at the U's feet. He yells, "it's over, play is dead, it's over!"

Meanwhile, QB pitches the ball to another back who runs around the outside and scores. The only people who stopped were those players who thought the ball was handed to the first back.

How do you handle this?

discipline, I tell myself before everygame, do not blow whistle until I see player down with ball. I constantly do this, or run it through my mind. In your scenario, the ball is live, no whistle, play is live. I guess as a WH, you talk to your U, and take what butt chewing from the HC.