Loose ball

lukealex · #1 (**permalink**) Mon May 23, 2005, 03:16pm

Here is the situation: Ball is loose in team A's FC, say a pass got tipped, now it is being batted around, so there isn't actually team control.

The ball is heading OOB, off team A. A1 trys to save the ball but in doing so throws the ball into the BC where it is recovered by team A. Would you determine A1 had control and call the over and back?

Thinking of random scenerios at work

ChuckElias · #2 (**permalink**) Mon May 23, 2005, 03:30pm

Couple of things here, luke.

1) The fact that the ball is loose, or deflected during a pass does not end team control. If there was team control before the deflection, then team control continues until the defense controls the ball or until the ball becomes dead.

It is, of course, possible that your scenario started with a throw-in or with a rebound from a try; in either case there would be no team control during the loose ball.

2) The call is strictly a judgment on the official's part as to whether the player saving the ball ever had control. Remember that player control is clearly defined as holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. If you determine that the player batted the ball without ever holding it, then there is still no team control and no backcourt violation. If you think that the player was able to hold the ball (rest in the hand) for even a moment, then the player had control and a backcourt violation.

This is one of many "had to be there" questions. It's strictly up to the official's judgment as to whether the player ever controlled the ball before sending it to the backcourt.

JRutledge · #3 (**permalink**) Mon May 23, 2005, 03:30pm

It does not sound like TC was ever lost in the first place, so a BC violation could easily be called.

If TC was lost and A1 was last to touch the FC while trying to save the ball, and then yes you would still have a BC violation

Peace

refTN · #4 (**permalink**) Mon May 23, 2005, 03:34pm

Assuming A was passing the ball around in A's FC and then the ball got tipped around for a while it doesn't matter if A was trying to save it and they had control when they tried to do so. The ball is considered to be in A's control until a shot is taken or you determined B had control of the ball. So when A touched it and it went backcourt and A was the first to touch it in its own BC it is over and back.

If B was the last to tip it before it went BC it would still be in A's control but not an over and back because B was the last to touch it.

Dadgumit Chuck and JRut beat me every time.

[Edited by refTN on May 23rd, 2005 at 04:37 PM]

lukealex · #5 (**permalink**) Mon May 23, 2005, 03:55pm

At least everybody agrees

lookin2improve · #6 (**permalink**) Mon May 23, 2005, 04:14pm

Quote:

Originally posted by refTN
Assuming A was passing the ball around in A's FC and then the ball got tipped around for a while it doesn't matter if A was trying to save it and they had control when they tried to do so. The ball is considered to be in A's control until a shot is taken or you determined B had control of the ball. So when A touched it and it went backcourt and A was the first to touch it in its own BC it is over and back.

If B was the last to tip it before it went BC it would still be in A's control but not an over and back because B was the last to touch it.

Dadgumit Chuck and JRut beat me every time.

[Edited by refTN on May 23rd, 2005 at 04:37 PM]

I find that most coaches in our area do not know this rule. If you have A in control in their FC, B1 tips the ball then A1 tips the ball just as it goes into BC, and A1 continues into BC to retrieve, you have over and back...and the majority of coaches will come unglued......

I'm curious, anyone else have that experience in their area?

M&M Guy · #7 (**permalink**) Mon May 23, 2005, 04:28pm

Quote:

Originally posted by lookin2improve
and the majority of coaches will come unglued......

I'm curious, anyone else have that experience in their area?

Coaches becoming unglued? Coaches not understanding the rules? Say it ain't so! This certainly never happens in our area - the Easter Bunny told me so!

Camron Rust · #8 (**permalink**) Mon May 23, 2005, 04:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by lukealex
At least everybody agrees

I might disagree...

What if the ref was wearing a belt or had a mustache? Would that change the call?

w_sohl · #9 (**permalink**) Mon May 23, 2005, 07:26pm

Easiest way to look at this is as if it were a ball out of bounds. A tips it into the backcourt (think out of bounds) who would you give it to? B, of course. So if B recovers in the backcourt we have nothing play on. If A recovers we now have a backcourt violation. If it goes into the backcourt off of a shot it is a free ball.

Also, shot goes up but is missed. Team A misplays their offensive rebound and inadvertantly taps it into backcourt, we still have nothing because TEAM CONTROL ended on the shot.

mplagrow · #10 (**permalink**) Mon May 23, 2005, 07:46pm

Quote:

Originally posted by lookin2improve

Quote:

Originally posted by refTN
Assuming A was passing the ball around in A's FC and then the ball got tipped around for a while it doesn't matter if A was trying to save it and they had control when they tried to do so. The ball is considered to be in A's control until a shot is taken or you determined B had control of the ball. So when A touched it and it went backcourt and A was the first to touch it in its own BC it is over and back.

If B was the last to tip it before it went BC it would still be in A's control but not an over and back because B was the last to touch it.

Dadgumit Chuck and JRut beat me every time.

[Edited by refTN on May 23rd, 2005 at 04:37 PM]

I find that most coaches in our area do not know this rule. If you have A in control in their FC, B1 tips the ball then A1 tips the ball just as it goes into BC, and A1 continues into BC to retrieve, you have over and back...and the majority of coaches will come unglued......

I'm curious, anyone else have that experience in their area?

Absolutely! If you want to piss off a coach and a gym full of fans, then make the correct call on that play and award the ball to B. I actually had another ref argue with me on that one. I walked out of the gym as the only one who believed I was right. He looked it up, and the next time we reffed together, he apologized.

refTN · #11 (**permalink**) Mon May 23, 2005, 10:46pm

I have had coaches and players and other refs argue that with me all the time mplagrow, but of course because I am a 19 year old, all the officials say I am wrong and they are right and so I go on my way not saying anything but knowing I am right.

I do just like every other ref does and I treat my rulebook and casebook like all southerners think you should treat your bible, I have by my bed and read it every night.

Ha like half the officials in the world do that.

ChrisSportsFan · #12 (**permalink**) Tue May 24, 2005, 10:00am

Hey RefTN, I think it's good that you let it roll off your back. I would not say that they argue because you are 19 years old. I'm 36 but I look like I'm 19 (ahem, ahem, sniff, stop laughing) and they still argue if they think they are right.

One thing I've been doing lately ,time permitting of course, is ask the coach what did he see? I've found that if I approach them with humility, they explain it to me rather than yelling. If they are arguing a rule/call, then I've said "coach, so that we're on the same page, will you site me the rule regarding team control?" When they realize they can't, they usually back down.

JRutledge · #13 (**permalink**) Tue May 24, 2005, 10:15am

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
Hey RefTN, I think it's good that you let it roll off your back. I would not say that they argue because you are 19 years old. I'm 36 but I look like I'm 19 (ahem, ahem, sniff, stop laughing) and they still argue if they think they are right.

I am sure some of the debate he gets has to do with his age. Just because you are a certain age, does not mean they do not think you are a certain age. I am 32 and I have faced officials with only two or three years of experience, but they were in their 40s and 50s treat me as if I am not very experienced from the very beginning. Then when they find out I have been working almost a lot longer than they have, then they show me a little more respect. The same goes for those veterans that have been around 20 years. It can play a part in how officials are treated. I know players approach me different than most officials because I do not look much older than they do (in their mind).

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan
One thing I've been doing lately ,time permitting of course, is ask the coach what did he see? I've found that if I approach them with humility, they explain it to me rather than yelling. If they are arguing a rule/call, then I've said "coach, so that we're on the same page, will you site me the rule regarding team control?" When they realize they can't, they usually back down.

The only problem with that is the coaches will debate the rule, not just what you saw. When coaches are unaware of a rule or do not realize that rule does not apply to the level you are calling, those coaches will fight tell the death (over dramatic) for their position on what took place.

Peace

ChrisSportsFan · #14 (**permalink**) Tue May 24, 2005, 10:23am

Your right JRut, I'm sure he get's extra crap because of his age, I was just trying to say that idiot coaches will be idiot coaches regardless.

ChrisSportsFan · #15 (**permalink**) Tue May 24, 2005, 10:26am

Then when they find out I have been working almost a lot longer than they have, then they show me a little more respect.

Does that mean that you have worked a little less than them or just sort of longer? LOLOLOLOL I know what you're trying to say it just came out a little funny.