5th foul sub mechanic

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

From my pregame: Game management: If I call a fifth foul on a player, I’ll tell the coach, unless I think it’s going to be a problem.

And, at least up until now, it's never been a problem.

What's the problem? You trying to do your job and a coach who can't control himself acting like a fool? I'll inform the coach/table/player on all 5th fouls that I call. I don't care if a coach is a "problem" or not. That's my job to deal with it.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by deecee

What's the problem? You trying to do your job and a coach who can't control himself acting like a fool? I'll inform the coach/table/player on all 5th fouls that I call. I don't care if a coach is a "problem" or not. That's my job to deal with it.

There's a pretty good saying that I like

Manage the unavoidable and
Avoid the unmanageable.

This sometimes falls under the second one. If a coach is really going to go off, it looks like money if the non-calling official whacks him. If I just made the call and then I go and tell the coach and then I whack him...that might be perceived as my issue.

Just food for thought.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Toren

There's a pretty good saying that I like

Manage the unavoidable and
Avoid the unmanageable.

This sometimes falls under the second one. If a coach is really going to go off, it looks like money if the non-calling official whacks him. If I just made the call and then I go and tell the coach and then I whack him...that might be perceived as my issue.

Just food for thought.

I don't really care about how much money I look like. I care about doing my job. Perception is different from the vantage point of who is doing the perceiving. I believe in facts and repercussions. I'm not a teenager that needs my partner to step in to handle the big scary coach. The coach's actions are what determines punishment, not mine. I will not run from my responsibility and I will not placate a coach simply to "avoid" a confrontation. Half the onus is on him too, and this is not "avoiding the unmanageable" this is just doing your job.

If I bait the coach, then shame on me. If the coach wants to say something stupid that may or may not earn him a T, then that's on him. Perception and facts are two very different things, and I hope your assignor knows the difference.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by deecee

I don't really care about how much money I look like. I care about doing my job. Perception is different from the vantage point of who is doing the perceiving. I believe in facts and repercussions. I'm not a teenager that needs my partner to step in to handle the big scary coach. The coach's actions are what determines punishment, not mine. I will not run from my responsibility and I will not placate a coach simply to "avoid" a confrontation. Half the onus is on him too, and this is not "avoiding the unmanageable" this is just doing your job.

If I bait the coach, then shame on me. If the coach wants to say something stupid that may or may not earn him a T, then that's on him. Perception and facts are two very different things, and I hope your assignor knows the difference.

So you think it's your job to tell the coach his player fouls out, as the calling official? Isn't that a crew responsibility?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Toren

So you think it's your job to tell the coach his player fouls out, as the calling official? Isn't that a crew responsibility?

I'm already at the table reporting the foul, so yes! If it happens that it's a 3 man game and the table is late to inform us and I am opposite the table then whomever is close can do the honors. Other than that just do your damn job and stop being concerned with players/coaches feelings, it actually makes officiating much much much much much much much easier.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by deecee

I'm already at the table reporting the foul, so yes! If it happens that it's a 3 man game and the table is late to inform us and I am opposite the table then whomever is close can do the honors. Other than that just do your damn job and stop being concerned with players/coaches feelings, it actually makes officiating much much much much much much much easier.

Then your job is pretty hard.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Toren

Then your job is pretty hard.

Yeah ... those 5-6 extra words the 10 times a week someone fouls out is downright exhausting...

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Toren

Then your job is pretty hard.

To me officiating, like anything else in life, is as difficult as I let it be. Like I said earlier, and this is one of my views on life, I have 0/no/none/zilch/nada control over other peoples emotions/feelings/behavior and I do not care about how they "may" react. Informing a coach about anything is just part of the job, and I don't think or see it necessary, as an adult to hand that responsibility over to my partner because I am "scared" of a little confrontation.

I mean some of the excuses and reasons being thrown around reminds me of the sheepish kid who doesn't want to make eye contact with their parents because they fear getting scolded. If you are a good official then you have NO problem dealing with and addressing a coach when needed and penalizing him when warranted. You also don't need your partner to ride in on his white horse. This to me undermines *your* authority in a major way.

**DISCLAIMER** Above is my opinion and sentiment on how adults should act and officials should officiate. These views are not of officiating.com or any of it's subsidiaries.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by deecee

I'm already at the table reporting the foul, so yes! If it happens that it's a 3 man game and the table is late to inform us and I am opposite the table then whomever is close can do the honors. Other than that just do your damn job and stop being concerned with players/coaches feelings, it actually makes officiating much much much much much much much easier.

I find this whole tirade fairly interesting.

You say you are at the table already reporting the foul. I didn't know we walked up to the table to report a foul. The new Trail is also there, so they are easily also capable of handling it.

Around these parts, I hand out more technicals than most. Those things call themselves. Letting my partner who is the Trail handle the 5th foul administration doesn't mean I'm not doing my job. It means I believe in crew concepts at all times. It's not me on court, it's us on the court.

But you do you.


As an edit: I'm on the men's side, so we go opposite table. So the trail is always table side.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by deecee

What's the problem? You trying to do your job and a coach who can't control himself acting like a fool? I'll inform the coach/table/player on all 5th fouls that I call. I don't care if a coach is a "problem" or not. That's my job to deal with it.

There's no honor in throwing gasoline on an already-established fire.

Just sayin'.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Rich

There's no honor in throwing gasoline on an already-established fire.

Just sayin'.

I don't get this sentiment. We inform the coach as we need to. Why do we have to censor ourselves because the coach can't control his emotions? This is not adding gasoline. Adding gasoline would be going over and saying something dumb to the coach.

I have been told two things involving this procedure. First, instruct the timer in the pregame to give you a signal for 20 seconds, but not buzz the horn. That gives you freedom to avoid a technical, at least for a bit. Second, don't approach the coach. If he wants to come to you and he has to come out of the coaching box. Both things give an extra layer of insulation.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I have been told two things involving this procedure. First, instruct the timer in the pregame to give you a signal for 20 seconds, but not buzz the horn. That gives you freedom to avoid a technical, at least for a bit. Second, don't approach the coach. If he wants to come to you and he has to come out of the coaching box. Both things give an extra layer of insulation.

This contradicts the rules.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by AremRed

First, instruct the timer in the pregame to give you a signal for 20 seconds, but not buzz the horn. That gives you freedom to avoid a technical, at least for a bit.

That's a really bad idea.

First, as deecee already said, it goes against what the rule book says.

Second, the Coach knows (or should) that he has 20 seconds and will be listening for that horn.

And I really don't get the whole "avoid the technical" thinking here...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

...the Coach knows that he has 20 seconds ...

rockyroad: You give coaches way too much credit. A few weeks ago, I had a coach ask for his thirty seconds to replace a disqualified player. Silly monkey.