5th foul sub mechanic

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

rockyroad: You give coaches way too much credit. A few weeks ago, I had a coach ask for his thirty seconds to replace a disqualified player. Silly monkey.

At least he knew there was a time limit...and when the horn sounds, he knows he is running out of time!

Originally Posted by deecee

This contradicts the rules.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

First, as deecee already said, it goes against what the rule book says.

Can you give me the citation that says the timer must sound the horn at the expiration of the 20 seconds?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Can you give me the citation that says the timer must sound the horn at the expiration of the 20 seconds?

2.12.5 Ruling (c)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by deecee

I don't get this sentiment. We inform the coach as we need to. Why do we have to censor ourselves because the coach can't control his emotions? This is not adding gasoline. Adding gasoline would be going over and saying something dumb to the coach.

I am with you, I do not get this attitude. We have the right to do our job and the coach is in control of their attitude or what they say.

And I do not think telling a coach they have a player with 5 fouls does anything either way if a coach wants to get at you. They could yell across the court and that behavior has to be addressed too.

And telling a coach that a player has 5 fouls does not mean you have to get in their fact. I stay at the table for the most part and make sure the sub comes. I am often 20 feet away from a coach when this takes place. Often the coach already knows they fouled out and they are trying to call their players over to take advantage of the 20 seconds.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

Adding gasoline would be going over and saying something dumb to the coach.

Which, in some cases might be, "That's 25's fifth foul coach".

If the official knows, for sure, that saying this will further exacerbate this situation, based on some previous comments by the coach, why "push it" if the mechanics set that one works under allows an option that may avoid a technical foul, or an ejection.

If you have this tool in your toolbelt (some might not), and don't use it, that's the same as saying "something dumb", maybe, at its absolute worst, a form of baiting.

We're smarter than coaches. Let's prove it.

I can't speak about NFHS mechanics, but IAABO offers an option for a reason. If there was not reason for the option, IAABO wouldn't offer it.

As I've said in the past, I've never used this option in my thirty-three years, but I like to have it in my "game management" toolbelt, because I may want to use it tomorrow night.

Along similar lines, this (following) is always part of my pregame, and, unlike the fifth foul situation, I use this one: If one of us calls a technical foul on a coach, the noncalling official will remind the coach that he must sit down.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Which, in some cases might be, "That's 25's fifth foul coach".

If this is what sets the coach off then that is on him 100%. This is not a dumb statement, but one of fact. As long as we implement mechanics to acquiesce to coaches who are upset we have no business complaining about coaches behavior. We either choose to deal with it or we don't.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

If this is what sets the coach off then that is on him 100%. This is not a dumb statement, but one of fact. As long as we implement mechanics to acquiesce to coaches who are upset we have no business complaining about coaches behavior. We either choose to deal with it or we don't.

It might be a dumb statement if you know, 100% for sure, that it's going to "set him off". Why not avoid it, why bait him into a technical foul, when it can be avoided? I hope that you're not of those officials who puts notches on his pistol grip.

I know that there are not a lot of IAABO-philes out there, even among IAABO members, but there has to be a reason why this option is in the book. What's the NFHS say?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It might be a dumb statement if you know, 100% for sure, that it's going to "set him off". Why not avoid it, why bait him into a technical foul, when it can be avoided? I hope that you're not of those officials who puts notches on his pistol grip.

I know that there are not a lot of IAABO-philes out there, even among IAABO members, but there has to be a reason why this option is in the book. What's the NFHS say?

I don't notch my belt, this year I have 3 T's all on players. This isn't baiting. Doing your job and baiting are 2 different things Billy. I don't "try" to avoid technical fouls. I just do my job and if they happen they happen. I cannot control how a coach or player reacts anymore than I can control what my significant other is cooking for dinner.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by deecee

If this is what sets the coach off then that is on him 100%. This is not a dumb statement, but one of fact. As long as we implement mechanics to acquiesce to coaches who are upset we have no business complaining about coaches behavior. We either choose to deal with it or we don't.

I don't find myself agreeing with you on this part of the game very often ... but I sure do here. We don't need to put as much effort in deciding what will or will not set off a coach as some seem to be intimating. If a coach just HAS to get that T, he will do so. Preventative officating here (as everywhere) is fine, but it seems some are advocating bending over backward to avoid having to issue a technical foul. I don't see that. If the guy's that borderline, let him have his T - sometimes that's the most efficient way to cool a hothead anyway.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

It seems some are advocating bending over backward to avoid having to issue a technical foul.

Not me. Not in thirty-three years. Why? Because I don't want to let the coach perceive that I can be intimidated, as I run away from him to the other side of the court, and let him deal with my partner.

But it's a game management tool that IAABO gives us. And it may be a good tool for some hot headed officials. Yes, there are hot headed officials, just as there are hot headed coaches. And maybe it's a good idea for a hot headed official to remove himself from the vicinity of the coach, and take a few breaths while his partner deals with the coach.

I often use the "remind the coach he can't stand" option. I'm occasionally pissed when I charge a technical foul to a coach. Maybe I need to go administer a few free throws, and calm down, even when I'm not supposed to switch that way. Do others employ this form of game management?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I don't find myself agreeing with you on this part of the game very often ... but I sure do here. We don't need to put as much effort in deciding what will or will not set off a coach as some seem to be intimating. If a coach just HAS to get that T, he will do so. Preventative officating here (as everywhere) is fine, but it seems some are advocating bending over backward to avoid having to issue a technical foul. I don't see that. If the guy's that borderline, let him have his T - sometimes that's the most efficient way to cool a hothead anyway.

Agreed...it's almost as if we think calling a T is somehow a failure on our part. "Oh no, I've called a T. What did I do wrong to cause this???? If only I had let my partner be the one to tell the Coach..."

T'd an Assistant Coach last Friday for standing up and yelling at my Partner's back...T'd a Head Coach Monday for screaming at me about a travel call...in both cases, after they had calmed down, the Coach wanted to know why I was mad at them. I responded the same both times - "Coach, I am not mad. There was no anger on my part at all."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

What's the problem? You trying to do your job and a coach who can't control himself acting like a fool? I'll inform the coach/table/player on all 5th fouls that I call. I don't care if a coach is a "problem" or not. That's my job to deal with it.

IAABO mechanics (can't speak for NFHS mechanics) give us the option of having the noncalling official tell the coach about the fifth foul, and to start the replacement clock. I've never had to opportunity to use this option, but IAABO probably has this option in place for a good reason.

I have no problem dealing with a coach that's upset, but I'm not going to get in pissing contest with him if it's unavoidable, and allowed by the mechanics set that I utilize. Sometimes it's not about being macho. If all it takes is an extra switch, or a no switch (in lots of situations, not just this specific one), to avoid escalating problems, than I'm all for it. I seldom use it, but I'm all for it.

[rockyroad]

There is nothing that requires us to go over to the Coach and inform him that it is the player's 5th foul...like Rich, I do it all from the same position. Report the foul - they tell me it is #5, I turn and inform the Coach from right there. Start the clock from right there. Tell partners from right there. The only times I have ever seen any problems is when a partner has gone over to the bench area to tell the Coach.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

There is nothing that requires us to go over to the Coach and inform him that it is the player's 5th foul...like Rich, I do it all from the same position. Report the foul - they tell me it is #5, I turn and inform the Coach from right there. Start the clock from right there. Tell partners from right there. The only times I have ever seen any problems is when a partner has gone over to the bench area to tell the Coach.

Excellent point. No reason to stick around after starting the clock, either. We can beckon the replacement from anywhere.