Backcourt ruling?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by APG

The tipped signal should be given once the ball is deflected by the defense and the ball is in the backcourt.

If we waited until the ball was actually in the backcourt then the offense could very well be at a disadvantage, as they would have "held up" when going after the ball to avoid the violation. Which seems to contradict the reason for giving the signal in the first place.

However, I can't find anything that says when the signal should be given. I'm looking in the rule book and the official's manual.

EDIT: How about that? It's mentioned in the beginning of the book, under rule changes, that the signal chart "added a defensive tip to indicate that the official has ruled that the ball entered the backcourt as a result of contact with a defensive player". So, you're right APG. However, it still seems like the signal should be given sooner, so that the offense can try to get the ball right away instead of "holding up" to avoid a possible violation.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

If we waited until the ball was actually in the backcourt then the offense could very well be at a disadvantage, as they would have "held up" when going after the ball to avoid the violation. Which seems to contradict the reason for giving the signal in the first place.

However, I can't find anything that says when the signal should be given. I'm looking in the rule book and the official's manual.

I can't tell the offense if they can go into the backcourt until I'm sure that the ball was tipped and the defense was the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt...if you simply do it on the deflection, the offense could still be the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt...and then they're going to see you doing your signal...then going to be confused when you (hopefully ) call the violation.

In almost every backcourt type call, the ball is going to gain a backcourt status before the offense would do any type of holding up.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by APG

I can't tell the offense if they can go into the backcourt until I'm sure that the ball was tipped and the defense was the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt...if you simply do it on the deflection, the offense could still be the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt...and then they're going to see you doing your signal...then going to be confused when you (hopefully ) call the violation.

In almost every backcourt type call, the ball is going to gain a backcourt status before the offense would do any type of holding up.

I can see the offense running to the ball which is headed towards the backcourt, and slowing up because they know there's a good chance they will end up in the backcourt once they touch it. And while slowing up, the defense has a chance to get to the ball first... knowing that whether they touch it or not there will not be a violation on them.

I know this scenario may not be likely, and signalling sooner could cause confusion, but I'm just trying to see things from all angles.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I can see the offense running to the ball which is headed towards the backcourt, and slowing up because they know there's a good chance they will end up in the backcourt once they touch it. And while slowing up, the defense has a chance to get to the ball first... knowing that whether they touch it or not there will not be a violation on them.

Did you ever play competitive basketball? If so, how many times did you slow down when in pursuit of the ball because you were afraid of a backcourt violation? Especially when the defensive team is in pursuit as well, trying to get the ball and start a fast break. My guess would be none after 6th grade when your coach told you to get the ball and not worry about a backcourt violation. The reasoning behind this new mechanic is a load of crap. Players were not slowing down their pursuit of the ball before this mechanic and they are not waiting to see if we give this signal now, before they decide whether or not to pursue the ball.

Additionally, you are going to look like a real dumbass if you use this mechanic too early and it turns out that the ball does actually end up in the backcourt having last touched the offensive team and you then have to call a violation.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Did you ever play competitive basketball? If so, how many times did you slow down when in pursuit of the ball because you were afraid of a backcourt violation? Especially when the defensive team is in pursuit as well, trying to get the ball and start a fast break. My guess would be none after 6th grade when your coach told you to get the ball and not worry about a backcourt violation. The reasoning behind this new mechanic is a load of crap. Players were not slowing down their pursuit of the ball before this mechanic and they are not waiting to see if we give this signal now, before they decide whether or not to pursue the ball.

Additionally, you are going to look like a real dumbass if you use this mechanic too early and it turns out that the ball does actually end up in the backcourt having last touched the offensive team and you then have to call a violation.

What are respectful way to respond to a genuine inquiry.

To answer your question.. yes, I played through high school. However, I'm not going to expect every player to play the game the same way I did. And seeing as how I wasn't that good, I would hope for their sake that they don't play the game the same way.

And you know what they say about assuming, right? Not to mention the saying "expect the unexpected"?

If you don't want to CYA because you think the chances of something happening are "none", then that's your prerogative. But don't look down on me because I do.

BTW, if the offense touches the ball before it goes into the backcourt, after it has touched the defense and I have given the signal, then they should know it. Add emphasis on the word "should" if you wish. Kind of the same-difference, isn't it?

[APG]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

BTW, if the offense touches the ball before it goes into the backcourt, after it has touched the defense and I have given the signal, then they should know it. Add emphasis on the word "should" if you wish. Kind of the same-difference, isn't it?

While johnny d was a little brash in his post, he's absolutely right in that you'll look silly giving the tipped signal here...and then calling a backcourt violation.

If the point is to give the offense an indication of whether they can go retrieve it in the backcourt, then what does it matter if the ball still has a frontcourt status after the deflection by the defense? The offense can always go retrieved the ball while it's in the frontcourt...it's when the ball is in the backcourt, when the offense may have any doubt (though I do agree that NFHS reasoning in that the offense was at a disadvantage and that this evens it out is silly...the signal is more for us to give information to a partner whom may be unsure of there was a tip...or it's to sell to the coach that there was a deflection, you saw it...no violation).

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

If you don't want to CYA because you think the chances of something happening are "none", then that's your prerogative. But don't look down on me because I do.

Nothing in my post was about looking down on you. The problem you have demonstrated on this forum consistently is that you are too worried about doing what is fair, rather than doing things as they are written in the rule book, case book, and mechanics manual. The rules, interpretations, and mechanics are not fair to both teams at all times, nor do they have to be. The rules make the game a fair game because both teams play by the same rules, interpretations and mechanics as long as the officials working the game enforce the rules and interpretations and utilize the mechanics as they are written without adding their own personal feelings about fairness.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Did you ever play competitive basketball? If so, how many times did you slow down when in pursuit of the ball because you were afraid of a backcourt violation? Especially when the defensive team is in pursuit as well, trying to get the ball and start a fast break. My guess would be none after 6th grade when your coach told you to get the ball and not worry about a backcourt violation. The reasoning behind this new mechanic is a load of crap. Players were not slowing down their pursuit of the ball before this mechanic and they are not waiting to see if we give this signal now, before they decide whether or not to pursue the ball.

Additionally, you are going to look like a real dumbass if you use this mechanic too early and it turns out that the ball does actually end up in the backcourt having last touched the offensive team and you then have to call a violation.

I see the offense slow up on potential backcourt violations frequently up to and including JV games. They shouldn't do that, since strategically it's better to violate as close to the division line as possible rather than allow the defense to recover, but they do.

I have been giving the new signal as soon as it is evident the ball can't be touched again in the front court. Normally this is as it crosses the division line.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

What are respectful way to respond to a genuine inquiry.

To answer your question.. yes, I played through high school. However, I'm not going to expect every player to play the game the same way I did. And seeing as how I wasn't that good, I would hope for their sake that they don't play the game the same way.

And you know what they say about assuming, right? Not to mention the saying "expect the unexpected"?

If you don't want to CYA because you think the chances of something happening are "none", then that's your prerogative. But don't look down on me because I do.

BTW, if the offense touches the ball before it goes into the backcourt, after it has touched the defense and I have given the signal, then they should know it. Add emphasis on the word "should" if you wish. Kind of the same-difference, isn't it?

Perhaps his tone was more aggressive than needed... but we're kind of back to what you just apologized for.

PLEASE stop being motivated by a desire to instill your own brand of fairness between the offense and the defense. I can't be more direct than this --- that is quite simply NOT OUR JOB. If you're so worried about fairness perhaps you should consider that both teams are playing by the same rules. Team A has the same (perceived by you) advantages on offense that Team B will have. The rules-makers (in conjunction with coaches, who approve and suggest these changes) are tasked with the job of balancing defense vs offense - and it ebbs and flows over time. That is THEIR job. Please, PLEASE, do yours and not theirs.

[BryanV21]

While I understand why you're saying that, this isn't about me instilling my personal beliefs regarding fairness. This is about upholding the spirit/reasoning for the rule, which comes from the NFHS... not me.