Lack of effort

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I guess I'm biased on my experiences. In my experience, the official described in the post (who doesn't understand the 3 second rule among other things) clearly isn't someone who would be working at the HS level. Many youth leagues hire local kids/teenagers and "train them" as best they can. This is the situation I am envisioning. Many of the officials just flat out don't know the rules at times.

I'd be curious to hear some of the arguements against this approach.

You are the coach this game, not the assignor or the clinician. If you want to improve the officiating at this level, take over as the assignor or offer to run clinics.

I don't believe that during a game is the time to "teach" officials or explain rules to them. The one time I coached a rec program and saw weak officials, I asked them only to blow the whistle loud and tell the kids what the call was. I accepted all other officiating weaknesses, much as they accepted all my coaching weaknesses.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

You are the coach this game, not the assignor or the clinician. If you want to improve the officiating at this level, take over as the assignor or offer to run clinics.

I don't believe that during a game is the time to "teach" officials or explain rules to them. The one time I coached a rec program and saw weak officials, I asked them only to blow the whistle loud and tell the kids what the call was. I accepted all other officiating weaknesses, much as they accepted all my coaching weaknesses.

I can see that, however, just to be clear, if I'm the coach, I would not be doing this so much to teach, but to help my team. If I thought that my team was being put at a disadvantage because the official was applying the rule incorrectly, I would be looking for a way to help the official understand the rule. I'm of the thinking that in this case, the official is likely a bit unsure of themselves so rather than publically voice my disagreement, I think I'd have better luck discretely discussing during a timeout. Again, I understand how this wouldn't be appropriate in many circumstances

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I can see that, however, just to be clear, if I'm the coach, I would not be doing this so much to teach, but to help my team. If I thought that my team was being put at a disadvantage because the official was applying the rule incorrectly, I would be looking for a way to help the official understand the rule. I'm of the thinking that in this case, the official is likely a bit unsure of themselves so rather than publically voice my disagreement, I think I'd have better luck discretely discussing during a timeout. Again, I understand how this wouldn't be appropriate in many circumstances

And you really think your comments help? They either know the rule or they don't. What you say is not going to change that fact. I never listen to coaches about anything officiating related and really do not listen when someone tells me they are an official.

Peace

[rockyroad]

First, let's remember that we are reading only the coach's side of this situation. I would love to hear the officials side. (Not that coaches ever embellish tales of our unprofessionalism )

Second - a Coach trying to "educate" an official about rules during a game is never going to work. Perfect example from this past Saturday...JC Coach only has 6 players. One fouls out...another player tells Coach "I really need a sub, I need a break." Coach wants to put DQ'd player back into game and proceeds to tell me that he can at the cost of a T, and then tells me that I don't know the rules as well as he does when I won't allow him to do that. So do any of us really truly listen to a Coach who tries to tell us what the rules are???

[deecee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

First, let's remember that we are reading only the coach's side of this situation. I would love to hear the officials side. (Not that coaches ever embellish tales of our unprofessionalism )

Second - a Coach trying to "educate" an official about rules during a game is never going to work. Perfect example from this past Saturday...JC Coach only has 6 players. One fouls out...another player tells Coach "I really need a sub, I need a break." Coach wants to put DQ'd player back into game and proceeds to tell me that he can at the cost of a T, and then tells me that I don't know the rules as well as he does when I won't allow him to do that. So do any of us really truly listen to a Coach who tries to tell us what the rules are???

With coaches the rules always seem to bend in their favor for whatever action they may want at any specified time.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And you really think your comments help? They either know the rule or they don't. What you say is not going to change that fact. I never listen to coaches about anything officiating related and really do not listen when someone tells me they are an official.

Peace

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Shame on you (and any other official) for thinking this and double shame on you for putting it in writing.

If I were the official in your game, you would have a very, very short leash. You would get exactly one chance to tell me that (or anything else about the rules or my judgment), because I would then politely and clearly tell you that is the last time you will do that without penalty.

I do not allow rec (and other youth coaches) to offer any "help" in my officiating.

Clearly the official in the OP is not you. I don't let coaches change my knowledge of the rules ... but I also have been through training and have enough experience where I am confident in my rules knowledge. I made an assumption (perhaps incorrectly based on my own experiences) that the official has never really been trained.

As I mentioned, I see all the time in my area where youth leagues hire local kids and they never get trained. I've seen these officials call "8 seconds", or "advance the ball to half court" after a timout because they watch the NBA. Until someone tells them the correct rule, they will continue to "officiate" that way.

So that is the situation where as a coach I may try to inform the offical of the rule which they are clearly unaware of. I'm not talking about a judgement call ... I'm talking about a basic rule that is not known in a youth/rec league where certified officials are not used. If it is a game that is officiated by IAABO officials, or officials in some other association, I'm just going to go back to the assignor after the game and let them know that the officials don't know basic rules.

[stripes]

The responses have been interesting. A follow up from my friend:

I thought I did a good job at keeping the kids focused. The other coach was going nuts all game so anything I did appeared to be tame in comparison. Our big guy scored 25 in the second half and we won so that helped but it was very frustrating. I remember when I started reffing and was working the AAU circuit. There were some good refs working but at the time XXXX and ZZZZ (my redaction as the names are not pertinent) were big into working those games and I remember XXXX saying once that in those games hustle and being in position made you stand out more than most officials. I always tried. Obviously there are games that are blowouts and a light jog is all you need sometimes I just can’t see walking. In transition there were times when both officials were standing near halfcourt. All well, hope I never did that. I remember an AAU game I worked that had DDDD high and their illustrious coach that YYYY loves vs I think WWWW and BBBB and I worked the game alone because someone didn’t show up. I literally worked the game from about 5 from the baseline to the baseline on each end the entire game. Demanded I get paid double for the game but all things considering had decent position except for the far sideline. DDDD coach was a jackass the entire game, BBBB was understanding and didn’t say much. I don’t expect that from these guys in my game but for heavens sake just make an effort on a fast break.

I believe my friend understands that call will be made and missed and he can live with that. It was the effort part that burned him the most.

I have officiated for 20 seasons and I coach youth football. Lack of effort and making calls out of your area are two things that will definitely get me going. I understand that the games are in a youth league and are not the Super Bowl or even a HSV game, but the kids work very hard in practice and the games are their chance to shine. If you are too big for the game or don't want to put in the effort, don't take the game. (That being said, 95% of the officials I have had for football have been great. Age appropriate and tried hard.)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Clearly the official in the OP is not you. I don't let coaches change my knowledge of the rules ... but I also have been through training and have enough experience where I am confident in my rules knowledge. I made an assumption (perhaps incorrectly based on my own experiences) that the official has never really been trained.

As I mentioned, I see all the time in my area where youth leagues hire local kids and they never get trained. I've seen these officials call "8 seconds", or "advance the ball to half court" after a timout because they watch the NBA. Until someone tells them the correct rule, they will continue to "officiate" that way.

So that is the situation where as a coach I may try to inform the offical of the rule which they are clearly unaware of. I'm not talking about a judgement call ... I'm talking about a basic rule that is not known in a youth/rec league where certified officials are not used. If it is a game that is officiated by IAABO officials, or officials in some other association, I'm just going to go back to the assignor after the game and let them know that the officials don't know basic rules.

But does all that change how the game is called?

So you can inform them all you like does not mean they will listen. And if there are officials calling things that you say they have, the problem is long before they get there and why many of them are working your games in the first place.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

As I mentioned, I see all the time in my area where youth leagues hire local kids and they never get trained. I've seen these officials call "8 seconds", or "advance the ball to half court" after a timout because they watch the NBA. Until someone tells them the correct rule, they will continue to "officiate" that way.

the way to fix that is some combination of

• not playing / coaching in those leagues
  
• volunteering to train the officials in those leagues
  
• contacting the league after the game to indicate the shortfalls

Mentioning it to the officials is not going to work.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Mentioning it to the officials is not going to work.

A few weeks go I worked a youth league with a first year official, working his first "real" games. I asked if he wanted any pointers...and he said yes. I offered exactly two: correct "box in" position when administering front court throw-ins and blowing the whistle and signalling with a fist or open hand for a foul or violation.

He really tried...but he could not get it right most of the time. He was making calls without blowing the whistle; he was blowing the whistle but not signalling; he had no idea what to do on a throw in other than to give the player the ball.

If the scared rookie, working with a calm, patient veteran is not "getting it" in his first games.....why do you think that your "help" with the rules is going to get a better result? And as soon as you "fix" his NBA rules, you will start on something else.

I do get your intentions are good. But they are misplaced. Bob has repeated my advice: either become the assignor (so you can hire qualified officials) or become the clinician so you can train them properly. I have done both for a rec league. And if I was observing and saw a coach talk to my inexperienced high school officials about a rule or judgment, I would step in and tell them to knock it off. Our program would not tolerate it any other way. That was my job, which I did after the games.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

If I thought that my team was being put at a disadvantage because the official was applying the rule incorrectly, I would be looking for a way to help the official understand the rule.

Shame on you (and any other official) for thinking this and double shame on you for putting it in writing.

If I were the official in your game, you would have a very, very short leash. You would get exactly one chance to tell me that (or anything else about the rules or my judgment), because I would then politely and clearly tell you that is the last time you will do that without penalty.

I do not allow rec (and other youth coaches) to offer any "help" in my officiating.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I can see that, however, just to be clear, if I'm the coach, I would not be doing this so much to teach, but to help my team. If I thought that my team was being put at a disadvantage because the official was applying the rule incorrectly, I would be looking for a way to help the official understand the rule. I'm of the thinking that in this case, the official is likely a bit unsure of themselves so rather than publically voice my disagreement, I think I'd have better luck discretely discussing during a timeout. Again, I understand how this wouldn't be appropriate in many circumstances

99.9% of the time when a coach tries to explain the rule, the coach is wrong. In the .1%, the official will still think you are wrong, and will think you are an @$$ for even trying to bring it up.