Lack of effort

[stripes]

I received the following email from a friend (who was a good referee until his continued knee problems forced him to retire). He is the coach of a youth (13 yo) team in Las Vegas.

1. We win the tip, our very fast, 6 foot 13 year old sprints to the post. I am telling PG which play to run when before our guy walks the ball past halfcourt we get a 3 in the key call. I was perplexed but told my guy to stay out of the key.

2. We are moving the ball around when my wing guy runs in the key to cut through lane and see’s a shot go up. (I just happened to be watching him cut) when the ball bounces off the rim and my guy gets called for 3 in the key. Ref comes down I ask doesn’t the shot mean 3 in the key is no longer valid? He didn’t even look at me. I moved on.

3. Player misses a shot, our 6 footer jumps straight up, arms straight above his head and was actually jumped backwards a slight bit and pulls down board. Foul, over the back. My guy was confused, I told him to keep playing hard. I ask ref if he pushed off or something and player wants to know what he did, he said “You saw it, don’t act like it wasn’t a foul” I said, “I am not acting, it wasn’t a foul, kid was straight up and down from where the guy boxed him out to.” I caught that he didn’t really want to be there so I just moved on.

4. 6 Footer kid on my team gets ball in the post, nice move to the hoop, literally gets hit in the head so hard his glasses flew off and he had a cut on the side of his eye. Misses the shot and had an injury time out. I thought the kids dad was going to kill someone but I calmed him down and we moved on.

5. Little Billy on my team drives to the hoop, misses the shot, my big man, same guy from last play takes it up and they are hanging all over him. No call. The ref comes down, I ask them to please watch the contact on the play and he responds, “Coach, that kid should be good enough to play through contact because he is taller than the other kids” OK, well at least you admit, was my response. So I moved on.



Later in the game, and my frustration was mounting the other team had 2 fast breaks on my end of the court where my guys got a way with murder and the refs were walking up the court like they didn’t care. My blood was boiling because I knew they weren’t going to be there when my guys had a fast break. I finally turned to the guy in charge, who is a longtime high school official down here and is a “crew chief” they call them and just said, “I can deal with missed calls and unnecessary 3 in the key and stuff like that, but I can’t take having officials walking up and down the court” He agreed but ended up leaving or going to the other gym and never said anything to me. Well unknown to them but little Billy’s Dad is a high school varsity coach. Helps out a lot with practices. So my guy comes down the court on a fast break and gets a shove from behind, misses layup and there are the guy that should be lead and getting position walking behind half court calling it out of bounds. I simply said, “did you see the hand in the back and choose not to call it?” He said “there was no contact” I said “There was contact, if you had made any effort whatsoever to get up to where I was standing or in front of the play you would have seen the foul. As it is that kid that hasn’t scored yet this year didn’t get the call” At that point he looked at me a little funny like, you have done this. He then walked past me while the ball was transitioning, not even a slight jog. I then just let him have it telling him to hustle so the other team doesn’t get screwed on a play that he can’t see. Got my T at that point. He came over and said “I know you think you know what you are talking about but I don’t think you do. You need to sit the rest of the game and just remember one thing, these are little kids and it’s not like these games matter” I just looked at him and said, “Dude, I don’t know what level of basketball you have worked, nor do I know your goals or motivation level but you never know who is watching so be careful what you say” Little Billy’s dad was standing right behind me when he said that. Little Billy’s dad went straight to “Crew Chief guy and asked if they were Varsity officials. 1 was and the other, forntunately the one staying out of trouble but not exactly hustling himself was first year varsity guy. The coach looked at him and just said, “If you ever show up to one of my games with that guy, I will be thrown out in the first 5 minutes.



After the game, I saw crew chief in the corner of the guy just letting this guy have it. The dude left and crew chief reffed the next game. I don’t think he was planning to work any games either.



I honestly said so few to these guys because I didn’t think they were worth it but man did that dude piss me off on Saturday. My wife kept looking at during the game telling me to calm down, I wasn’t saying anything or being loud, in fact I was telling my assistant to shut up and even telling him on half of his complaints the officials got it right or didn’t need to call something. I think I pissed him off too. It is just frustrating when guys can’t even hustle a little. I don’t expect sprinting speed but act like you care. They get paid $30 bucks a game which isn’t bad either.

[BillyMac]

Here on the Forum, we often say, "Don't make three seconds your best call of the night".

I guess that this guy wasn't listening.

[JRutledge]

It is youth ball, be glad you have anyone. Never would suggest you would get the best or most knowledgable officials around. There is a reason this official is working that game. And that does not mean always that he would not be good enough to work other games or levels, but sometimes this is an indication.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is youth ball, be glad you have anyone. Never would suggest you would get the best or most knowledgable officials around. There is a reason this official is working that game. And that does not mean always that he would not be good enough to work other games or levels, but sometimes this is an indication.

Peace

One reason I don't work many of these games. When I work, I work one way. It disgusts me to see officials walking up and down the floor because they don't think the game deserves effort.

I'd just rather avoid that kind of basketball. At this point in my life I don't think it makes me any better of an official.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

One reason I don't work many of these games. When I work, I work one way. It disgusts me to see officials walking up and down the floor because they don't think the game deserves effort.

I'd just rather avoid that kind of basketball. At this point in my life I don't think it makes me any better of an official.

Same here. And working too much takes away from what I really need to be on display and work.

And I feel the same about what these games do for me. It mostly frustrates me because I expect a certain level of conduct by the participants and that is unrealistic when no one is held to the same level of conduct that you see at the HS or college levels.

Peace

[Raymond]

If they are in Las Vegas, and they are Varsity officials, especially a crew chief, then tomegun would know them. But he may not have anything to do with assigning that particular league.

Catch him before Sunday night's NFC conference championship game, b/c he might not be in a good mood after that.

[SNIPERBBB]

Dang I would love to have 30 bucks for doing rec games, we get 15 at best here in my county there are a few tournaments I hear that pay better.

Some guys are just there to collect a check, it happens in high school games as well but not quite to that degree. As far as the "these games dont matter", well these games always matter though it might not matter to you. It is also true that games at that level are treated much too seriously than what they ought to be( what I usually attribute to what I call the 18-year get-rich-quick scheme delusion).

[Rich]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Dang I would love to have 30 bucks for doing rec games, we get 15 at best here in my county there are a few tournaments I hear that pay better.

Some guys are just there to collect a check, it happens in high school games as well but not quite to that degree. As far as the "these games dont matter", well these games always matter though it might not matter to you. It is also true that games at that level are treated much too seriously than what they ought to be( what I usually attribute to what I call the 18-year get-rich-quick scheme delusion).

$15? I couldn't imagine leaving the house for $15 a game. They fill slots paying that little?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Rich

$15? I couldn't imagine leaving the house for $15 a game. They fill slots paying that little?

I'm very particular about the non-scholastic games I will officiate. I know around these parts I have the reputation of a prima donna because of this, but when I do sign up to work, nobody has to worry about any type of mess of any kind happening in my game.

When I choose not work certain tournaments and venues, I let them know it's because I wouldn't be motivated to give my full effort.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rich

$15? I couldn't imagine leaving the house for $15 a game. They fill slots paying that little?

They do here, too. Too bad, I wouldn't mind working those games.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Adam

They do here, too. Too bad, I wouldn't mind working those games.

My minimum is $25 and I'll do that once or twice a year. And I'll do it if I can have exactly 4 games.

(And yes, if I'm working weekend rec ball, it's *all* about the Benjamin. Or I'm at a camp.)

[JetMetFan]

*In terms of the coach's side of the story being biased: Normally I'm inclined to agree but the fact he's a former official and he said his kids got away with murder on a few calls leads me to believe he's not far from the truth. I base that on the following...

*A partner in one my GV games last week...
- Walked into the gym dressed in his pre-game jacket and game pants. Yes, he was wearing a belt.
- Used his cell phone as we watched pre-game warmups. Twice.
- Used a pink whistle. He said it's a tribute to his mother, which I get, but we have *do* have guidelines.
- Used an unauthorized shirt.
- Ran fewer than ten times during the entire game by my estimate.
- During the last six minutes of the game wouldn't switch. If I was the L and had a foul he just relayed my calls to the table (we use NCAAW mechanics so we don't have a reporting spot). Normally I just force guys to switch but when he started inbounding the ball as I walked towards him I was kind of stuck.
- Many times he either walked - with his back to the play - or backpedaled to the L position in transition.

Are our assignors aware? Yes, but he still gets work. It's the second time he's been my partner this season. He also assigns rec ball. Tons of it.

*Last but not least, you need to come work in the NY/NY Metro area if you want decent pay for rec ball. $40-50 is the going rate. As far as I'm concerned that's still too low.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by stripes

I received the following email from a friend (who was a good referee until his continued knee problems forced him to retire). He is the coach of a youth (13 yo) team in Las Vegas.

1. We win the tip, our very fast, 6 foot 13 year old sprints to the post. I am telling PG which play to run when before our guy walks the ball past halfcourt we get a 3 in the key call. I was perplexed but told my guy to stay out of the key.

2. We are moving the ball around when my wing guy runs in the key to cut through lane and see’s a shot go up. (I just happened to be watching him cut) when the ball bounces off the rim and my guy gets called for 3 in the key. Ref comes down I ask doesn’t the shot mean 3 in the key is no longer valid? He didn’t even look at me. I moved on.

If I'm coaching, rather than arguing the rule as in 1 and 2, I might take a timeout and calmly ask the official to come over for a moment. Clearly the officials do not understand the 3 second rule, so I would (quietly so that no one else could hear) say something like:
"I just want to let you know the 3 second count does not start until the the there is team control in the front court. Also, there can be no three second count during a shot as there is no team control. I just wanted to let you know because I myself am an offical and I know several other officals are here as well watching and they will recognize immediately that you are misinterpreting this rule. That's all, thanks ref."

It might not work, but if the rule application is that bad, I'm getting screwed either way. Any maybe the ref actually does want to learn and didn't realize the three second calls were incorrect by rule.

[Nevadaref]

I wouldn't advise attempting to tell a referee doing an 8th grade game anything about the rules.
I'll have more to post on this whole situation later.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I wouldn't advise attempting to tell a referee doing an 8th grade game anything about the rules.
I'll have more to post on this whole situation later.

I agree. The best you can do is ask a question and *maybe* follow it up with "Can we both look that up later? Because I thought it was the opposite."