Infield fly...ordinary effort?

[fiasco]

Had a sitch in a game last night...a short, stocky girl was playing second base. One out, runners on 2nd and 3rd. Batter hits a pop fly (inbetween a high pop and a blooper) over the 2nd baseman. It lands maybe 6 or 7 feet into the outfield.

Now, does ordinary effort mean for any player, or for the caliber of player you have on the field? In my opinion, most people should have been able to get to that pop fly. However, this girl reacted slowly and she was slow even after she reacted.

I called infield fly because I thought it should have been caught with ordinary effort. The ball landed just outside the infield. Defensive team was pretty upset as a run scored in the ensuing confusion.

Thoughts?

Also, a question I'm pretty sure I know the answer to but want to clarify. When infield fly is called, there is no force at 2nd, 3rd and home, correct? Since the BR is out, runners have the option to stay at or return to their bases, so no force out?

Thanks. Sorry if this is too Umpiring 101.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Had a sitch in a game last night...a short, stocky girl was playing second base. One out, runners on 2nd and 3rd. Batter hits a pop fly (inbetween a high pop and a blooper) over the 2nd baseman. It lands maybe 6 or 7 feet into the outfield.

Now, does ordinary effort mean for any player, or for the caliber of player you have on the field? In my opinion, most people should have been able to get to that pop fly. However, this girl reacted slowly and she was slow.

You judge it based upon who you've got on the field. Ordinary effort for 10U may not be the same for 70-Over Seniors, and 500-lb Bubba's ordinary effort will differ from Derek Jeter playing shortstop. So in a nutshell, yes, it will vary.

Originally Posted by fiasco

I called infield fly because I thought it should have been caught with ordinary effort. The ball landed just outside the infield. Defensive team was pretty upset as a run scored in the ensuing confusion.

Thoughts?

Hey, it's your judgment as to whether or not the ball COULD be caught with ordinary effort, not the coach's. The coach can eat a bug when it comes to your judgment. If the ball is caught, runners must tag up in order to advance, and they may do so at their own risk. If the ball isn't caught, runners don't have to tag up, and they may advance at their own risk.

Where the ball lands is completely irrelevant. It's whether or not someone playing the position of infielder can get there to catch it with ordinary effort. Let's say the ball is hit, and would land 1 foot shy of the outfield. If the infielder is playing next to the grass, they only need to take a few steps back. We've got an IFF (infield fly). On the other hand, if the infielders are expecting a bunt and are playing way inside the baselines, chances are that they none of them would be able to get to that pop fly hit 1 foot shy of the outfield.

You see what I'm getting at?

Originally Posted by fiasco

Also, a question I'm pretty sure I know the answer to but want to clarify. When infield fly is called, there is no force at 2nd, 3rd and home, correct? Since the BR is out, runners have the option to stay at or return to their bases, so no force out?

That's correct. The force is now off, and runners may advance at their own risk. If the ball is caught, they need to tag up. If not caught, they may attempt to advance without tagging up.

Originally Posted by fiasco

Thanks. Sorry if this is too Umpiring 101.

Nah, 102.

[MGKBLUE]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Had a sitch in a game last night...a short, stocky girl was playing second base. One out, runners on 2nd and 3rd. Batter hits a pop fly (inbetween a high pop and a blooper) over the 2nd baseman. It lands maybe 6 or 7 feet into the outfield.

I agree with the comments made by NCASAUmp.

However, based upon the OP, the infield fly rule was not in effect as the runners were at 2nd and 3rd, with no runner at 1st.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by MGKBLUE

I agree with the comments made by NCASAUmp.

However, based upon the OP, the infield fly rule was not in effect as the runners were at 2nd and 3rd, with no runner at 1st.

Oh holy crap, I missed that.

What's with me lately? I should stop answering questions while programming at work...

[fiasco]

I don't know why I always have such a hard time posting the right bases. Runners were at 1st and 2nd. Definitely was IF sitch.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I don't know why I always have such a hard time posting the right bases. Runners were at 1st and 2nd. Definitely was IF sitch.

Too much oat bran for the brain, giving you brain farts?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I called infield fly because I thought it should have been caught with ordinary effort. The ball landed just outside the infield. Defensive team was pretty upset as a run scored in the ensuing confusion.

So I'm visualizing a conversation something like this:

DCoach: That wasn't an infield fly.
You: You sure coach?
DCoach: No way that could be caught with ordinary effort.
You: I'm pretty sure you don't mean that coach.
DCoach: No way, and my players were all confused.
You: Okay, no infield fly, Batter is safe at first. All other action stands.

If she didn't catch the ball and they didn't get the ball in in time to stop the runners, what did the DC want you to do with the non-IF?
________
WEB SHOWS

[Dakota]

An IF does not have to land in the infield... "can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort" is the standard.

So, positioning of the infielders does matter. I will also adjust for the level of play, but not for the individual player, and certainly not for how the individual player reacts to the ball.

If the infielder has to turn and run out to catch the ball, it MAY not be ordinary effort.

But, in the end, it is your judgment.

And, the purpose of the IFR is to protect the offense, so the defense has no standing to complain how ever you call it, although usually when the defense complains it is when the IF was NOT called (they are looking for the cheap out), so I like youngump's response...

[wadeintothem]

Just call the ball. If its a play where the offense needs protecting, do it. If its obvious some spectacular thing needs to happen for a play to be made and crazy stuff is going on, dont call it. You see a fielder is under it or easily moving under it, call it. Dont call the skill level, get the out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

An IF does not have to land in the infield...

Sure it does (in ASA) assuming it lands!

"can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort" is the standard.

So, positioning of the infielders does matter. I will also adjust for the level of play, but not for the individual player, and certainly not for how the individual player reacts to the ball.

Why not? As Dave noted, if the fielders are playing up or charging, reversing direction and hauling *** to get the ball is most likely not ordinary effort. And if the fielder is camped, pounding his/her glove and calling the ball, there MAY be a good chance that you will rule an IF even if the ball comes down away from that player.

If the infielder has to turn and run out to catch the ball, it MAY not be ordinary effort.

That is often a great indicator.

But, in the end, it is your judgment.

Which is the hook as to why an umpire really shouldn't approach the IF call with any preconceived notions which may or may not have a bearing on the call. But you knew that, didn't you?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Sure it does (in ASA) assuming it lands!

OK, I'll play along...

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Why not? As Dave noted, if the fielders are playing up or charging, reversing direction and hauling *** to get the ball is most likely not ordinary effort. And if the fielder is camped, pounding his/her glove and calling the ball, there MAY be a good chance that you will rule an IF even if the ball comes down away from that player.

True, I was thinking in terms of the OP situation, where we have Lucy playing F4...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

OK, I'll play along...

Because ASA defines the infield as the area of fair territory normally covered by infielders.

So, for a batted ball to qualify as an IF, it would need to be in an area where an infielder can make a play on it with ordinary effort. If ordinary effort by an infielder is there, then the ball must be in the area normally covered by an infielder which means if the ball is uncaught, it will land in the infield.

You may think I'm joking, but if you have ever worked the upper level of men's SP, some of the infield configurations can put a BU so deep it s/he could easily have a normal voice conversation with the outfielder. That makes for one BIG infield, but for the purposes of the rule, that is just what it is.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Sure it does (in ASA) assuming it lands!

Actually, it doesn't need to land in fair territory. It just needs to be a fair batted ball that can be caught with ordinary effort by any infielder (including pitcher and catcher). It can land in foul territory and roll fair if it hasn't passed 1B or 3B.

[NCASAUmp]

Related to this, there's 10-2-A-8:

Examples of protests which will not be considered are... whether a batted ball was or was not an infield fly.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Actually, it doesn't need to land in fair territory. It just needs to be a fair batted ball that can be caught with ordinary effort by any infielder (including pitcher and catcher). It can land in foul territory and roll fair if it hasn't passed 1B or 3B.

I started to type "Nobody said it had to land in fair territory" and no one did. However, reading through the points, it could be presumed that by the definition of infielders and infield, there is an implication that the ball would have to land in fair territory, which as you have pointed out is not necessarily so.

Good catch.