Lack of effort

[Nevadaref]

I wouldn't advise attempting to tell a referee doing an 8th grade game anything about the rules.
I'll have more to post on this whole situation later.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I wouldn't advise attempting to tell a referee doing an 8th grade game anything about the rules.
I'll have more to post on this whole situation later.

I agree. The best you can do is ask a question and *maybe* follow it up with "Can we both look that up later? Because I thought it was the opposite."

[Rich]

I was watching a softball game my 9-year-old daughter was playing last year.

The "umpire" was calling pitches more than a foot off the plate strikes. It was everything I could do not to say something. I went for a walk, instead. I mean, there was no way she could even *REACH* those pitches.

This year, I'm the team's coach. We'll see how this goes.

I get that I'm getting the bottom of the barrel or the newest umpires, BTW. I'm prepared for that.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich

I was watching a softball game my 9-year-old daughter was playing last year.

The "umpire" was calling pitches more than a foot off the plate strikes. It was everything I could do not to say something. I went for a walk, instead. I mean, there was no way she could even *REACH* those pitches.

This year, I'm the team's coach. We'll see how this goes.

I get that I'm getting the bottom of the barrel or the newest umpires, BTW. I'm prepared for that.

Those were strikes compared to the ones I was seeing when my duaghter played around age 10-12. Consistently, and in more than one game, the umpire was calling strikes on balls that bounced in the dirt before reaching the plate.

[egj13]

In my previous home of record during my first year in that association I showed up to work a MS boys game and there was a game going on before mine. The one official was a young kid that I had worked with already but the other guy I hadn't met. This dude was wearing a long sleeve shirt under his stripes, chomping on gum and holding his whistle in his hand. He would work the endline to the nearest freethrow line and that was it. So the young kid comes over at half time to ask what I thought about how he was doing. I gave him some feedback and said, "but this clown you are working with is a disgrace" He says "oh he is just saving energy because he is working the cross-town boys game tonight" Turns out he was one of the best officials I had seen in person when he was working HS/College ball but he made it clear that he was at MS games for the extra money.

Long story short...if you are a recreation level coach you can expect recreation level officiating. Personally I give my best at every level because they deserve it but many officials don't.

[pfan1981]

Originally Posted by egj13

Long story short...if you are a recreation level coach you can expect recreation level officiating. Personally I give my best at every level because they deserve it but many officials don't.

These are the games that can get out of control. Lack of game management, lack of fans knowing the rules, not calling everything (otherwise you would be there all night), etc. I think Ed Hightower plans on doing some middle school ball during his retirement......

[stick]

I got my start doing varsity hs basketball from working a middle school game. Apparently the main assigner was in attendance watching his son play at a middle school game I was working. He got my number and called me up the next day and wanted to know if I would work with him in a varsity game the next night. Why he picked me is still a mystery to this day. Back then varsity was two man but the lesson is you never know who might be watching you officiate.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by stick

I got my start doing varsity hs basketball from working a middle school game. Apparently the main assigner was in attendance watching his son play at a middle school game I was working. He got my number and called me up the next day and wanted to know if I would work with him in a varsity game the next night. Back then varsity was two man but the lesson is you never know who might be watching you officiate.

Jerry Markbreit tells a story about how he worked some nothing football game in the worst weather imaginable -- rain, wind, etc. and treated it like it was the Super Bowl. The right person saw him that day and launched his career that took him to the top of the Big 10 and the NFL.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I wouldn't advise attempting to tell a referee doing an 8th grade game anything about the rules.
I'll have more to post on this whole situation later.

I guess I'm biased on my experiences. In my experience, the official described in the post (who doesn't understand the 3 second rule among other things) clearly isn't someone who would be working at the HS level. Many youth leagues hire local kids/teenagers and "train them" as best they can. This is the situation I am envisioning. Many of the officials just flat out don't know the rules at times.

I'd be curious to hear some of the arguements against this approach.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I guess I'm biased on my experiences. In my experience, the official described in the post (who doesn't understand the 3 second rule among other things) clearly isn't someone who would be working at the HS level. Many youth leagues hire local kids/teenagers and "train them" as best they can. This is the situation I am envisioning. Many of the officials just flat out don't know the rules at times.

I'd be curious to hear some of the arguements against this approach.

You are the coach this game, not the assignor or the clinician. If you want to improve the officiating at this level, take over as the assignor or offer to run clinics.

I don't believe that during a game is the time to "teach" officials or explain rules to them. The one time I coached a rec program and saw weak officials, I asked them only to blow the whistle loud and tell the kids what the call was. I accepted all other officiating weaknesses, much as they accepted all my coaching weaknesses.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

You are the coach this game, not the assignor or the clinician. If you want to improve the officiating at this level, take over as the assignor or offer to run clinics.

I don't believe that during a game is the time to "teach" officials or explain rules to them. The one time I coached a rec program and saw weak officials, I asked them only to blow the whistle loud and tell the kids what the call was. I accepted all other officiating weaknesses, much as they accepted all my coaching weaknesses.

I can see that, however, just to be clear, if I'm the coach, I would not be doing this so much to teach, but to help my team. If I thought that my team was being put at a disadvantage because the official was applying the rule incorrectly, I would be looking for a way to help the official understand the rule. I'm of the thinking that in this case, the official is likely a bit unsure of themselves so rather than publically voice my disagreement, I think I'd have better luck discretely discussing during a timeout. Again, I understand how this wouldn't be appropriate in many circumstances

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I can see that, however, just to be clear, if I'm the coach, I would not be doing this so much to teach, but to help my team. If I thought that my team was being put at a disadvantage because the official was applying the rule incorrectly, I would be looking for a way to help the official understand the rule. I'm of the thinking that in this case, the official is likely a bit unsure of themselves so rather than publically voice my disagreement, I think I'd have better luck discretely discussing during a timeout. Again, I understand how this wouldn't be appropriate in many circumstances

And you really think your comments help? They either know the rule or they don't. What you say is not going to change that fact. I never listen to coaches about anything officiating related and really do not listen when someone tells me they are an official.

Peace

[rockyroad]

First, let's remember that we are reading only the coach's side of this situation. I would love to hear the officials side. (Not that coaches ever embellish tales of our unprofessionalism )

Second - a Coach trying to "educate" an official about rules during a game is never going to work. Perfect example from this past Saturday...JC Coach only has 6 players. One fouls out...another player tells Coach "I really need a sub, I need a break." Coach wants to put DQ'd player back into game and proceeds to tell me that he can at the cost of a T, and then tells me that I don't know the rules as well as he does when I won't allow him to do that. So do any of us really truly listen to a Coach who tries to tell us what the rules are???

[deecee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

First, let's remember that we are reading only the coach's side of this situation. I would love to hear the officials side. (Not that coaches ever embellish tales of our unprofessionalism )

Second - a Coach trying to "educate" an official about rules during a game is never going to work. Perfect example from this past Saturday...JC Coach only has 6 players. One fouls out...another player tells Coach "I really need a sub, I need a break." Coach wants to put DQ'd player back into game and proceeds to tell me that he can at the cost of a T, and then tells me that I don't know the rules as well as he does when I won't allow him to do that. So do any of us really truly listen to a Coach who tries to tell us what the rules are???

With coaches the rules always seem to bend in their favor for whatever action they may want at any specified time.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And you really think your comments help? They either know the rule or they don't. What you say is not going to change that fact. I never listen to coaches about anything officiating related and really do not listen when someone tells me they are an official.

Peace

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Shame on you (and any other official) for thinking this and double shame on you for putting it in writing.

If I were the official in your game, you would have a very, very short leash. You would get exactly one chance to tell me that (or anything else about the rules or my judgment), because I would then politely and clearly tell you that is the last time you will do that without penalty.

I do not allow rec (and other youth coaches) to offer any "help" in my officiating.

Clearly the official in the OP is not you. I don't let coaches change my knowledge of the rules ... but I also have been through training and have enough experience where I am confident in my rules knowledge. I made an assumption (perhaps incorrectly based on my own experiences) that the official has never really been trained.

As I mentioned, I see all the time in my area where youth leagues hire local kids and they never get trained. I've seen these officials call "8 seconds", or "advance the ball to half court" after a timout because they watch the NBA. Until someone tells them the correct rule, they will continue to "officiate" that way.

So that is the situation where as a coach I may try to inform the offical of the rule which they are clearly unaware of. I'm not talking about a judgement call ... I'm talking about a basic rule that is not known in a youth/rec league where certified officials are not used. If it is a game that is officiated by IAABO officials, or officials in some other association, I'm just going to go back to the assignor after the game and let them know that the officials don't know basic rules.