Lack of effort

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

He was wearing a belt.

The horror. And of course, when guys walk into the gym with beltless slacks, they always do an excellent job.

Note: I realize that in many parts of the country, wearing a belt is against the accepted standards of that area. I just can't understand why I can accept that, while others on the Forum can't accept the same premise for standards outside their geographic area.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The horror. And of course, when guys walk into the gym with beltless slacks, they always do an excellent job.

Note: I realize that in many parts of the country, wearing a belt is against the accepted standards of that area. I just can't understand why I can accept that, while others on the Forum can't accept the same premise for standards outside their geographic area.

I figured that would get a rise out of you

Obviously it doesn't affect his ability but it does put him in the "out of uniform" category for NYC...along with the whistle and the uniform shirt. I've worked with the guy twice and he's worn the wrong shirt both times (the first time he forgot his GV shirt and had to wear one with an IAABO patch which, for NYC publics, is reserved for BV games only). It all speaks to attention to details. If I can't trust my partner to handle the easy stuff - like what to wear - I'm going to be concerned about the less-than-easy stuff.

If I was in CT where belts are de rigueur I wouldn't even think about it.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And you really think your comments help? They either know the rule or they don't. What you say is not going to change that fact. I never listen to coaches about anything officiating related and really do not listen when someone tells me they are an official.

Peace

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Shame on you (and any other official) for thinking this and double shame on you for putting it in writing.

If I were the official in your game, you would have a very, very short leash. You would get exactly one chance to tell me that (or anything else about the rules or my judgment), because I would then politely and clearly tell you that is the last time you will do that without penalty.

I do not allow rec (and other youth coaches) to offer any "help" in my officiating.

Clearly the official in the OP is not you. I don't let coaches change my knowledge of the rules ... but I also have been through training and have enough experience where I am confident in my rules knowledge. I made an assumption (perhaps incorrectly based on my own experiences) that the official has never really been trained.

As I mentioned, I see all the time in my area where youth leagues hire local kids and they never get trained. I've seen these officials call "8 seconds", or "advance the ball to half court" after a timout because they watch the NBA. Until someone tells them the correct rule, they will continue to "officiate" that way.

So that is the situation where as a coach I may try to inform the offical of the rule which they are clearly unaware of. I'm not talking about a judgement call ... I'm talking about a basic rule that is not known in a youth/rec league where certified officials are not used. If it is a game that is officiated by IAABO officials, or officials in some other association, I'm just going to go back to the assignor after the game and let them know that the officials don't know basic rules.

[stripes]

The responses have been interesting. A follow up from my friend:

I thought I did a good job at keeping the kids focused. The other coach was going nuts all game so anything I did appeared to be tame in comparison. Our big guy scored 25 in the second half and we won so that helped but it was very frustrating. I remember when I started reffing and was working the AAU circuit. There were some good refs working but at the time XXXX and ZZZZ (my redaction as the names are not pertinent) were big into working those games and I remember XXXX saying once that in those games hustle and being in position made you stand out more than most officials. I always tried. Obviously there are games that are blowouts and a light jog is all you need sometimes I just can’t see walking. In transition there were times when both officials were standing near halfcourt. All well, hope I never did that. I remember an AAU game I worked that had DDDD high and their illustrious coach that YYYY loves vs I think WWWW and BBBB and I worked the game alone because someone didn’t show up. I literally worked the game from about 5 from the baseline to the baseline on each end the entire game. Demanded I get paid double for the game but all things considering had decent position except for the far sideline. DDDD coach was a jackass the entire game, BBBB was understanding and didn’t say much. I don’t expect that from these guys in my game but for heavens sake just make an effort on a fast break.

I believe my friend understands that call will be made and missed and he can live with that. It was the effort part that burned him the most.

I have officiated for 20 seasons and I coach youth football. Lack of effort and making calls out of your area are two things that will definitely get me going. I understand that the games are in a youth league and are not the Super Bowl or even a HSV game, but the kids work very hard in practice and the games are their chance to shine. If you are too big for the game or don't want to put in the effort, don't take the game. (That being said, 95% of the officials I have had for football have been great. Age appropriate and tried hard.)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Clearly the official in the OP is not you. I don't let coaches change my knowledge of the rules ... but I also have been through training and have enough experience where I am confident in my rules knowledge. I made an assumption (perhaps incorrectly based on my own experiences) that the official has never really been trained.

As I mentioned, I see all the time in my area where youth leagues hire local kids and they never get trained. I've seen these officials call "8 seconds", or "advance the ball to half court" after a timout because they watch the NBA. Until someone tells them the correct rule, they will continue to "officiate" that way.

So that is the situation where as a coach I may try to inform the offical of the rule which they are clearly unaware of. I'm not talking about a judgement call ... I'm talking about a basic rule that is not known in a youth/rec league where certified officials are not used. If it is a game that is officiated by IAABO officials, or officials in some other association, I'm just going to go back to the assignor after the game and let them know that the officials don't know basic rules.

But does all that change how the game is called?

So you can inform them all you like does not mean they will listen. And if there are officials calling things that you say they have, the problem is long before they get there and why many of them are working your games in the first place.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

As I mentioned, I see all the time in my area where youth leagues hire local kids and they never get trained. I've seen these officials call "8 seconds", or "advance the ball to half court" after a timout because they watch the NBA. Until someone tells them the correct rule, they will continue to "officiate" that way.

the way to fix that is some combination of

• not playing / coaching in those leagues
  
• volunteering to train the officials in those leagues
  
• contacting the league after the game to indicate the shortfalls

Mentioning it to the officials is not going to work.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Mentioning it to the officials is not going to work.

A few weeks go I worked a youth league with a first year official, working his first "real" games. I asked if he wanted any pointers...and he said yes. I offered exactly two: correct "box in" position when administering front court throw-ins and blowing the whistle and signalling with a fist or open hand for a foul or violation.

He really tried...but he could not get it right most of the time. He was making calls without blowing the whistle; he was blowing the whistle but not signalling; he had no idea what to do on a throw in other than to give the player the ball.

If the scared rookie, working with a calm, patient veteran is not "getting it" in his first games.....why do you think that your "help" with the rules is going to get a better result? And as soon as you "fix" his NBA rules, you will start on something else.

I do get your intentions are good. But they are misplaced. Bob has repeated my advice: either become the assignor (so you can hire qualified officials) or become the clinician so you can train them properly. I have done both for a rec league. And if I was observing and saw a coach talk to my inexperienced high school officials about a rule or judgment, I would step in and tell them to knock it off. Our program would not tolerate it any other way. That was my job, which I did after the games.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Obviously it doesn't affect his ability but it does put him in the "out of uniform" category for NYC...along with the whistle and the uniform shirt ... It all speaks to attention to details. If I can't trust my partner to handle the easy stuff - like what to wear - I'm going to be concerned about the less-than-easy stuff. If I was in CT where belts are de rigueur I wouldn't even think about it.

JetMetFan: Well stated. You get it. Why can't others? From now on, when I watch a high school game in New York City, and an official is wearing a belt, then I know that that that official isn't paying attention to details, and may have a few other faults. On the other hand, in my little corner of Connecticut, when a high school official shows up in uniform, and doesn't shower after a game, but just bolts out the door, that's a good indication that that official isn't doing what he is supposed do, and may be a sign that there may be other faults.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

JetMetFan: Well stated. You get it. Why can't others? From now on, when I watch a high school game in New York City, and an official is wearing a belt, then I know that that that official isn't paying attention to details, and may have a few other faults. On the other hand, in my little corner of Connecticut, when a high school official shows up in uniform, and doesn't shower after a game, but just bolts out the door, that's a good indication that that official isn't doing what he is supposed do, and may be a sign that there may be other faults.

Why are you surprised when something is acceptable in your area of the country...is frowned upon in most parts of the country at the high school level (at the very least at the varsity level)...hell most of the officiating community?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

On the other hand, in my little corner of Connecticut, when a high school official shows up in uniform, and doesn't shower after a game, but just bolts out the door, that's a good indication that that official isn't doing what he is supposed do, and may be a sign that there may be other faults.

Are you saying that whether to shower or not after a game is a point of discussion in your area?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

JetMetFan: Well stated. You get it. Why can't others?

Originally Posted by APG

Why are you surprised when something is acceptable in your area of the country...is frowned upon in most parts of the country at the high school level (at the very least at the varsity level)...hell most of the officiating community?

Or, instead push everyone to accept you and your belt, why not just accept that in some areas it is looked down upon? You don't live in those areas, why should you care? I've been on this forum a year now and have probably seen 30 posts defending your belt. That's about 29 more than I would want to see.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Or, instead push everyone to accept you and your belt, why not just accept that in some most areas it is looked down upon? ...

Slight correction.

Still, though

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by APG

Why are you surprised when something is acceptable in your area of the country...is frowned upon in most parts of the country at the high school level.

I'm not. JetMetFan isn't. Most posters on the Forum aren't. I continue to be surprised that a few Forum members can't accept that something that is unacceptable in their part of the country is totally acceptable in my little corner of Connecticut.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Are you saying that whether to shower or not after a game is a point of discussion in your area?

Yes. Our local board, as well as our assignment commissioner, do not want officials to give the appearance that we get in, get out, and get paid (for high school games where there are locker room, and shower facilities, available, which is about ninety-five percent of the seventy high schools that we service).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AremRed

...push everyone to accept you and your belt, why not just accept that in some areas it is looked down upon?

I have always accepted the "dress code" in other areas. What I can't accept is the refusal of some Forum members to accept the dress code in my little corner of Connecticut. Some members seem to imply that "When in Rome ..." works for everywhere accept my little corner of Connecticut.