Associational Debate

[NCHSAA]

Off the ball during live play: A2 attempts to strike B2 with a fist or elbow. NO CONTACT is made.

What do you have? Our association has debated this for a while to the point of resurrecting the dead horse.

[deecee]

Flagrant and an ejection. A punch doesn't have to land to be deemed a flagrant.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by deecee

Flagrant and an ejection. A punch doesn't have to land to be deemed a flagrant.

deecee:

I have a question for you. A Flagrant what?

MTD, Sr.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

deecee:

I have a question for you. A Flagrant what?

MTD, Sr.

T. Its still a fight in my book. Maybe one sided, but a fight nevertheless.

[johnny d]

Debated, why? Seems pretty simple and straightforward.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Debated, why? Seems pretty simple and straightforward.

I would guess they are debating Flagrant Technical Foul or Flagrant Foul.

Could change who shoots FT's and where ball is put back into play.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

I would guess they are debating Flagrant Technical Foul or Flagrant Foul.

Could change who shoots FT's and where ball is put back into play.

I hope that's what they were debating, but there's really not much to debate here.

Without contact, it has to be a flagrant T.
With contact, I'd still probably go with a T but wouldn't fault anyone for going with a flagrant personal.

[bballref3966]

Pretty straightforward, no?

Rule 4-18

Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:

ART.*1 . . . An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.


Rule 10-3-8

A player shall not be charged with fighting.


I've got a flagrant T, DQ, two shots and throw-in at the division line.

[Camron Rust]

Agree with the above...flagrant T.

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Debated, why? Seems pretty simple and straightforward.

Yes, straightforward in the sense of Flagrant, but the debate occurs between Technical vs. Personal here. Told the guys I would poll the intellectual audience here.

[johnny d]

I would like to hear the reasoning used by those advocating for a flagrant personal foul on a play that doesn't involve contact. Again, this debate should have lasted as long as it took for someone to get out their rule book and quote the rule. It should have been over in less than a minute.

[MD Longhorn]

Honestly, the OP should be an utter no-brainer. It HAS to be a flagrant, and CAN'T be a personal - Flagrant T is obvious.

That said - a punch WITH contact is more debatable - I feel it should still be Flagrant T - but I suspect there will be some, maybe half even, that would call it a Flagrant Foul - and I can't fault them for that.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Honestly, the OP should be an utter no-brainer. It HAS to be a flagrant, and CAN'T be a personal - Flagrant T is obvious.

That said - a punch WITH contact is more debatable - I feel it should still be Flagrant T - but I suspect there will be some, maybe half even, that would call it a Flagrant Foul - and I can't fault them for that.

You cant fault them because by rule they would be correct. Fouls that involve contact while the ball is live are by definition personal fouls.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

Yes, straightforward in the sense of Flagrant, but the debate occurs between Technical vs. Personal here. Told the guys I would poll the intellectual audience here.

A punch, strike, or vicious elbow which makes contact during a live ball is a flagrant personal foul. One that doesn't is a flagrant technical foul.

8.6.3 SITUATION A:
A1 is attempting the second free throw of a two-shot foul. While the second free throw is in flight, A2 and B1 punch each other simultaneously.

RULING: Both A2 and B1 are disqualified for fighting. Since this is a double *personal foul, no free throws are awarded. The ball is put in play at the point of interruption. If A1's free throw is successful, Team B is awarded a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. If A1's free throw is unsuccessful, the alternating-possession procedure is used. (4-19-8; 6-4-3f; 7-5-3b; 4-36; 10-3-8; 10 Penalty 1c, 8a(1))

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A punch, strike, or vicious elbow which makes contact during a live ball is a flagrant personal foul. One that doesn't is a flagrant technical foul.

8.6.3 SITUATION A:
A1 is attempting the second free throw of a two-shot foul. While the second free throw is in flight, A2 and B1 punch each other simultaneously.

RULING: Both A2 and B1 are disqualified for fighting. Since this is a double *personal foul, no free throws are awarded. The ball is put in play at the point of interruption. If A1's free throw is successful, Team B is awarded a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. If A1's free throw is unsuccessful, the alternating-possession procedure is used. (4-19-8; 6-4-3f; 7-5-3b; 4-36; 10-3-8; 10 Penalty 1c, 8a(1))

All nice, but 10-3-8 says otherwise. Another case of rules and cases being inconsistent.