Question from a coach

[JRutledge]

Coaches can say things during the game, I know why I do not personally call something or not call something. I do not need their help. It gets me to ignore them even during the game. They need to worry about their job, not worrying about telling me how to do mine.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is it possible that he is able to "get through" the contact, and thus, even with the contact, he is able, with his speed, to get past his opponents. If so, the officials may be seeing this as incidental contact, with no advantage gained by the defense, and thus, no foul.

Some strong, quick players don't avoid contact, especially if they know that they can "get through" it. If it looks like a pinball game out there, he may be creating some of the contact, not enough for a player control foul, but some of the contact may be of his own volition.

Originally Posted by johnny d

If your player is as good and strong as you say, he is probably playing through a lot of the contact and is not having his rsbq affected.

Bingo.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by CoachJW

I would like your advice on how to approach this with officials respectfully and productively.

Originally Posted by CoachJW

I really just want to know what to tell them or how to explain my argument in such a way that will help them call the game fairly.

You will never be able to communicate with an official respectfully if you think they need help being "fair".

Until that attitude is eliminated, you will never be able to effectively communicate with an official.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by asdf

You will never be able to communicate with an official respectfully if you think they need help being "fair".

Until that attitude is eliminated, you will never be able to effectively communicate with an official.

I'm also picking up a possibility that the kid is forcing his way into traffic frequently -- and players that drive into traffic and initiate contact are just not going to get the fouls called that his coach wants to see called.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'm also picking up a possibility that the kid is forcing his way into traffic frequently -- and players that drive into traffic and initiate contact are just not going to get the fouls called that his coach wants to see called.

A good possibility at that.... I'd be willing to bet we all encounter this.

My suggestion to the coach is to ask the official what he's/she's seeing out there. The coach may not like the answer, but at least the coach now knows the officials perspective on the action and the coach can adjust or have the players adjust accordingly.

To infer that the game isn't being called fair shows how little respect the coach has for officials.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by asdf

A good possibility at that.... I'd be willing to bet we all encounter this.

My suggestion to the coach is to ask the official what he's/she's seeing out there. The coach may not like the answer, but at least the coach now knows the officials perspective on the action and the coach can adjust or have the players adjust accordingly.

To infer that the game isn't being called fair shows how little respect the coach has for officials.

It also, in my opinion, indicates an over inflated understanding of the impact a coach can have by "working the refs."

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Adam

It also, in my opinion, indicates an over inflated understanding of the impact a coach can have by "working the refs."

But they heard the announcers talk about it, so it must be true....

[BigT]

I would love a independent study where some of you are paid to walk into HS Gyms around the country and evaluate BV games. I believe you will see a lot of below average officials even working these games. And I would love to be wrong. There are a lot of guys that are really old or really dont get into full gear until half way into the season. And I dont think many of those referees come here to study and get better.

A young official when to watch his brother's (Soph) Varsity game. Very large school and one of the Varsity refs was a past association president and had done some major play off games during his 20+ years career. And all three of them didnt sit down the coach for a pregame dunk and started the game with a jump ball.

You guys are the cream of the crop when it comes to rules knowledge, game management, philosophies, etc, That is not what the majority of JV and Var guys are around the country. That would be my bet. So to say a very talented kid might not be getting the full benefit of proper foul management sounds like a real possibility. Most guys here are in there 40,50,60,70's and shortening a game when a team and kid are dominating is a real possibility.

Coach it wouldnt be hard to get film of your game and post it here. It would be a real eye opener for everyone if you could.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BigT

I would love a independent study where some of you are paid to walk into HS Gyms around the country and evaluate BV games. I believe you will see a lot of below average officials even working these games. And I would love to be wrong. There are a lot of guys that are really old or really dont get into full gear until half way into the season. And I dont think many of those referees come here to study and get better.

I wouldn't even attempt to argue this point with you, especially on a Friday night when every HS in the greater Chicago area is playing. I am sure that assignment guys everywhere have no choice but to put guys on games that they cant handle and hope for the best. That said, I don't really care about an officials motivation or lack thereof, it still takes a certain amount of guts to put on the uniform and go out there and put up with the abuse. That is more than can be said for the people who can only officiate from the stands. Much like anything else, people are always willing to complain. However, very few are willing to take any action. If the people complaining think the officiating is that bad, then they should get themselves a whistle, buy a rule book, attend a clinic, and go out there and try to do a better job.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by johnny d

On a Friday night when every HS in the greater Chicago area is playing

We've got a few nights, not just Fridays, when our assignment commissioner is begging us to unblock our Arbiter schedules.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by BigT

I would love a independent study where some of you are paid to walk into HS Gyms around the country and evaluate BV games. I believe you will see a lot of below average officials even working these games. And I would love to be wrong. There are a lot of guys that are really old or really dont get into full gear until half way into the season. And I dont think many of those referees come here to study and get better.

A young official when to watch his brother's (Soph) Varsity game. Very large school and one of the Varsity refs was a past association president and had done some major play off games during his 20+ years career. And all three of them didnt sit down the coach for a pregame dunk and started the game with a jump ball.

You guys are the cream of the crop when it comes to rules knowledge, game management, philosophies, etc, That is not what the majority of JV and Var guys are around the country. That would be my bet. So to say a very talented kid might not be getting the full benefit of proper foul management sounds like a real possibility. Most guys here are in there 40,50,60,70's and shortening a game when a team and kid are dominating is a real possibility.

Coach it wouldnt be hard to get film of your game and post it here. It would be a real eye opener for everyone if you could.

Please, do not equate age with inability, poor ability, poor judgement. I've talked with several assignors and many coaches who would rather have the experienced judgement of a veteran, and the familiarity of knowing what they're going to get, than the young, talented, up-and-coming official who lacks the seasoning that only time and experience can bring.

[rawhi1]

The coach mentioned his player is constantly hand checked, bumped, and pushed. I can only see one of those three as being incidental contact. A recent POI on hand checking whether the hot stove touch or constant hand on is illegal contact. Forget about how great the coach feels his player is. I've been taught to referee the defense. If the defense does nothing wrong and there's contact and its not incidental then there should be a foul on the offense. Any other contact other then incidental by the defense would be a foul on the defense. If the coach feels his concerns are justified then as mentioned send a tape to the assigner. During the game you make have to work the referees in a convesational not confrontational way to get them to look at what you see going on out on the court. Something like "its a lot of hands and contact out there ." Or maybe "can u watch number 23 he has his hands on him a lot." Getting irrate leading to a tech serves no purpose. From a former Coach.Present official.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by rawhi1

The coach mentioned his player is constantly hand checked, bumped, and pushed. I can only see one of those three as being incidental contact. A recent POI on hand checking whether the hot stove touch or constant hand on is illegal contact. Forget about how great the coach feels his player is. I've been taught to referee the defense. If the defense does nothing wrong and there's contact and its not incidental then there should be a foul on the offense. Any other contact other then incidental by the defense would be a foul on the defense. If the coach feels his concerns are justified then as mentioned send a tape to the assigner. During the game you make have to work the referees in a convesational not confrontational way to get them to look at what you see going on out on the court. Something like "its a lot of hands and contact out there ." Or maybe "can u watch number 23 he has his hands on him a lot." Getting irrate leading to a tech serves no purpose. From a former Coach.Present official.

A coach telling me there's "a lot of hands and contact out there" is going to be ignored, straight away. There's no question in the statement and by this point in my career I've decided how much contact is acceptable - no coach is going to change that, especially on a single, given night.

Especially when his kids do the same thing at the other end and he's not all that concerned about it then...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rawhi1

A recent POI on hand checking whether the hot stove touch or constant hand on is illegal contact.

That's not universally accepted (in fact, it might be a minority opinion). It also needs to be initiated by the defense -- so if the offense drives into the defense and the hand goes on, it is probably not a foul on the offense.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's not universally accepted (in fact, it might be a minority opinion). It also needs to be initiated by the defense -- so if the offense drives into the defense and the hand goes on, it is probably not a foul on the offense.

Exactly. Calling the "hot stove" a foul every time would quickly get you a steady diet of no games in my world.