You Decide (Clip)

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

No one has made that assertion.

The defender needs to be in the path the offensive player is moving. A1 could be dribbling away from her basket to the division line, then B1 would need to take a position between A1 and the division line. I don't think anyone has suggested B1 could not obtain LGP in this situation.

BadNews:

No where in the rules will you find confirmation of what you said (highlighted in red) in your post above. To take your position would mean that a dribbler could avoid a CGS by dribbling away from a defensive player even though the defensive player stays within six feet of the dribbler.

MTD, Sr.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BadNews:

No where in the rules will you find confirmation of what you said (highlighted in red) in your post above. To take your position would mean that a dribbler could avoid a CGS by dribbling away from a defensive player even though the defensive player stays within six feet of the dribbler.

MTD, Sr.

So if the A1 were dribbling from the endline towards the divison line while in the front court, and B1 was in front of A1, you wouldn't have a count?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by APG

MTD...the very act of guarding requires the defender to be in the path

NCAA (Men and Women)

Rule 4

Section 17. Guarding
Art. 1. Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. The guarding position shall be initially established and then maintained inbounds on the playing court.

NFHS:

Rule 4-23
Art. 1 Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without *illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.

APG:

Point taken. But I have never liked that phrase in the rules because of what I said in my recent post (Post #91) in this thread. Furthermore when defenders trap a ball handler, at least one of the defenders may not be in the path of the defender even though he/she has obtained/established a LGP; besides what path has a stationary offensive player established?

It is always been my position that a defender either has a LGP or he does not with regard to a particular offensive player.

I would rather see "the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent" phrase be changed (or delete it completely) to "legally obtaining an unoccupied spot on the playing court" because guarding really comes down to one of five things: 1) denying an opponent a spot on the court; 2) denying an opponent the ball; 3) keeping an opponent from shooting; 4) denying an opponent from passing the ball; or denying an opponent from dribbling.

And NCAA R4-17 and NFHS R4-S23 do a good job in describing what a defender can and cannot do with regard to an offensive player that is moving.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So if the A1 were dribbling from the endline towards the divison line while in the front court, and B1 was in front of A1, you wouldn't have a count?

That is what I asked you?

MTD, Sr.

[SWKS]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

APG:

Point taken. But I have never liked that phrase in the rules because of what I said in my recent post (Post #91) in this thread. Furthermore when defenders trap a ball handler, at least one of the defenders may not be in the path of the defender even though he/she has obtained/established a LGP; besides what path has a stationary offensive player established?

It is always been my position that a defender either has a LGP or he does not with regard to a particular offensive player.

I would rather see "the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent" phrase be changed (or delete it completely) to "legally obtaining an unoccupied spot on the playing court" because guarding really comes down to one of five things: 1) denying an opponent a spot on the court; 2) denying an opponent the ball; 3) keeping an opponent from shooting; 4) denying an opponent from passing the ball; or denying an opponent from dribbling.

And NCAA R4-17 and NFHS R4-S23 do a good job in describing what a defender can and cannot do with regard to an offensive player that is moving.

MTD, Sr.

MTD and APG

Isn't in the path generally vague for a reason? The object of the offensive team to is to score within their halfcourt after crossing the division line. There are not time restraints in NFHS so we don't have to examine that, BUT...the path is where the offensive player is intending to go in relation to the basket. When the player is 25 ft. away from the basket they have a large vector they could go and therefore the PATH of the player is wide and the defensive player would need to be in that vector. As the offensive player gets closer to the basket in an attempt to shot, the vector is smaller and the responsibility of the defender increases to get in the correct path. The sidelines and other players change the width of that vector.

But in the play that we are examining in this thread. It is a one on one type situation and the vector path for the offensive player is wide and the defensive player has a right to a wide PATH also.

Another of my 2 cents

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

That is what I asked you?

MTD, Sr.

You haven't asked me any questions in this thread that I can remember.

You asserted "It appears that some people equate LGP with being a defender being positioned on a straight line between an offensive player, who is control of the ball, and the offensive player's team's basket.".

I was trying to figure out from where you derived that assertion.

[Rooster]

Originally Posted by SWKS

MTD and APG

Isn't in the path generally vague for a reason? The object of the offensive team to is to score within their halfcourt after crossing the division line. There are not time restraints in NFHS so we don't have to examine that, BUT...the path is where the offensive player is intending to go in relation to the basket. When the player is 25 ft. away from the basket they have a large vector they could go and therefore the PATH of the player is wide and the defensive player would need to be in that vector. As the offensive player gets closer to the basket in an attempt to shot, the vector is smaller and the responsibility of the defender increases to get in the correct path. The sidelines and other players change the width of that vector.

Says who?
Help me here, because I'm not seeing where this relates to the path of the offensive player and I don't see rulebook support for this.

[HawkeyeCubP]

I don't think anyone would bat an eye at a block call on this - or this type of play. But I also actually think an argument could be made that the defender did technically actually establish LGP a few steps before the contact.

I'm personally banging this a block. (And I'm also fortunate enough to not be working a two-person game to give the negatively-affected coach any more ammunition about us possibly being out of position for the call.)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You have a dancing banana? Oh, that's a "block" signal he's doing.

Here in my little corner of Connecticut, our dancing bananas are discouraged from punching their fists on their hips for a blocking foul. Our dancing bananas are supposed to use their open hands on their hips.

[Terrapins Fan]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

The defender never left the lane.

At the 4 second mark, defender has both feet fully in the lane. at 5 seconds, one foot is nearly over the lane line, she moved forward and into the offensive player. BLOCK.

That was my 1st thought and I am yet to be swayed.

When Mark chimed in, I had 2nd thoughts. But by consenses, I believe we have a block.

[xyrph]

I am the original poster of this video clip and I would like to sincerely thank each and every one of you for your comments.

I have learned a lot just from monitoring the lively discussion.

There seems to be some question whether the defender made a movement toward the dribbler prior to contact. My thought at the game was that she had.

I have no idea whether this will help but the original video was shot at 60 frames per second. Here is a frame of the clip immediately prior to contact. It again appears to me that the defender is leaning toward the dribbler (as in moving toward the dribbler) with her shoulder and the side of her body.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

At the 4 second mark, defender has both feet fully in the lane. at 5 seconds, one foot is nearly over the lane line, she moved forward and into the offensive player. BLOCK.

That was my 1st thought and I am yet to be swayed.
When Mark chimed in, I had 2nd thoughts. But by consenses, I believe we have a block.

you and I both have the same poor eyesight. I saw the same thing.

Originally Posted by xyrph

There seems to be some question whether the defender made a movement toward the dribbler prior to contact. My thought at the game was that she had.

I have no idea whether this will help but the original video was shot at 60 frames per second. Here is a frame of the clip immediately prior to contact. It again appears to me that the defender is leaning toward the dribbler (as in moving toward the dribbler) with her shoulder and the side of her body.

Nice picture, but (as JRut would say) pictures can't tell us jack. Yeah in this picture the defender appears to be leaning toward the dribbler. However 1) leaning doesn't make one lose LGP and 2) it might look like a lean when in fact the defender is simply trying to slow down. When we are running at a fast speed and try to slow down, we naturally lean in the opposite direction of our momentum. If we didn't we would fall over a lot more often.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

AremRed:

Where in the Rules is this "in the path" of which you speak. I have peruesed the Rules Books from 1971 hence and cannot find it.

Mark, I learned this the hard way too. I insisted it was not a requirement for LGP but I was wrong. I wish the NFHS would list this among the typical requirements for LGP so we have everything in one place.