You Decide (Clip)

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The R1 has most certainly obtained (NFHS)/established (NCAA and FIBA) a LGP against W1 and is moving to maintain it. The fact that R1 has turned to absorb the contact from the W1 does not matter. Nor does it matter that R1 is moving when contact occurred; when contact occurred R1 was not moving obliquely into A1 at the time of contact.

MTD, Sr.

In MTDS I trust.

R1 established LGP - two feet on the floor and the front of her torso facing her opponent - about :04 into the clip. W1 just happened to be about 20 feet away from her at the time.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

In MTDS I trust.

R1 established LGP - two feet on the floor and the front of her torso facing her opponent - about :04 into the clip. W1 just happened to be about 20 feet away from her at the time.

Thank you. I will put the check in the afternoon mail.

MTD, Sr.

[Raymond]

Block!!! B1 didn't turn away to absorb contact, B1 turned INTO A1 to create the contact.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Block!!! B1 didn't turn away to absorb contact, B1 turned INTO A1 to create the contact.

Agree.

Defender created the contact with her shoulder.

Block.

[APG]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

In MTDS I trust.

R1 established LGP - two feet on the floor and the front of her torso facing her opponent - about :04 into the clip. W1 just happened to be about 20 feet away from her at the time.

Disagree. IMO, the defender's torso is not facing the defender but rather facing the sideline. As such, defender the defender never got LGP.

[bob jenkins]

I don't think she had LGP, but it isn't always required.

[Treeguy]

Originally Posted by APG

Disagree. IMO, the defender's torso is not facing the defender but rather facing the sideline. As such, defender the defender never got LGP.

I agree, when the dribbler is at the foul line extended, the defender has both feet on the line with the blocks facing the sideline, not the dribbler. I have a block.

[SWKS]

Player Control foul...W1 displaced and went thru torso of R1 while she had LGP...Agree with MTD

[BryanV21]

I definitely don't see the defender gaining LGP. And even if she did get LGP, she turns INTO the shooter. I thought this upon the first viewing, and after the fifth time I still believe it.

[zm1283]

I would have a block in real time and I still have a block after watching it a few times. The defender never gets her feet on the floor facing the offensive player. At :04 in the clip she is facing the sideline with her right shoulder pointed at the dribbler, and she creates the contact with her shoulder as the offensive player gathers to shoot.

[SWKS]

Originally Posted by zm1283

I would have a block in real time and I still have a block after watching it a few times. The defender never gets her feet on the floor facing the offensive player. At :04 in the clip she is facing the sideline with her right shoulder pointed at the dribbler, and she creates the contact with her shoulder as the offensive player gathers to shoot.

Using 4-23-3 as reference.

ART. 3

After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:

a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status.

b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.

c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, *provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.

e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

Look at the 5 second mark...she has obtained LGP by definition. When contact is made she is moving obliquely to maintain postion and away from opponent. Then contact is made by offensive player and defensive player turns to absorb imminent contact.

This is player control by definition. It looks like a block foul but it is a Player Control.

[Rich1]

Block all the way! R1 was moving diagonally across the lane and INTO W1's path. She did not establish LGP before the contact so it has to be a block.

[#olderthanilook]

NFHS
Rule: 4-23-2
ART. 2
To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

Both defender's feet were definitely touching the playing court (direction of toes does not matter). However, her torso was not facing the opponent. Therefore, I have a BLOCK, not PC.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

NFHS
Rule: 4-23-2
ART. 2
To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

Both defender's feet were definitely touching the playing court (direction of toes does not matter). However, her torso was not facing the opponent. Therefore, I have a BLOCK, not PC.

Older:

I am going to use your post to make a point about the "front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent".


Another point that has been discussed in this thread with regard to LGP is NFHS R4-S23-A2 which states that:

Article 2a: To obtain an initial legal guarding position the guard must have both feet touching the playing court.

Article 2b: To obtain an initial legal guarding position the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.


Now, as a retired structural engineer I get to apply my mathematical skills to discuss NFHS R4-S23-A2.

1) Both Paragraphs (a) and (b) of Article 2 must occur at the same time at some point during the action to obtain LGP.

2) There is no minimum length of time required for the requirements of Paragraphs (a) and (b) to be maintained to obtain LGP. The moment of time can be as short as 0.000,...,...,000,...,1 seconds (One can have an infinite number of 0's between the decimal point at the 1.).

3) The facing of the guard's torso can be defined, mathematically, as follows: At the moment that the requirements of Paragraphs (a) and (b) are met, the orientation of the front of the guard's torso, so as to be facing his/her opponent, must meet the following requirements:

a) Imagine a straight line (Line A) between the between the guard and his/her opponent and imagine a second line (Line B) running through the shoulders of the guard.

b) The angle between Line B and Line A at the point where the two lines intersect can be 90 degrees (the lines are perpendicular to each other).

c) Or, Line B can be rotated about the point where the two lines intersect from their perpendicular orientation in either direction by as much as 89.999,...,999 degrees (One can have an infinite number of 9's after the decimal point.).

(b) and (c) both meet the requirement of Article 2b.


MTD, Sr.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Older:

I am going to use your post to make a point about the "front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent".


Another point that has been discussed in this thread with regard to LGP is NFHS R4-S23-A2 which states that:

Article 2a: To obtain an initial legal guarding position the guard must have both feet touching the playing court.

Article 2b: To obtain an initial legal guarding position the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.


Now, as a retired structural engineer I get to apply my mathematical skills to discuss NFHS R4-S23-A2.

1) Both Paragraphs (a) and (b) of Article 2 must occur at the same time at some point during the action to obtain LGP.

2) There is no minimum length of time required for the requirements of Paragraphs (a) and (b) to be maintained to obtain LGP. The moment of time can be as short as 0.000,...,...,000,...,1 seconds (One can have an infinite number of 0's between the decimal point at the 1.).

3) The facing of the guard's torso can be defined, mathematically, as follows: At the moment that the requirements of Paragraphs (a) and (b) are met, the orientation of the front of the guard's torso, so as to be facing his/her opponent, must meet the following requirements:

a) Imagine a straight line (Line A) between the between the guard and his/her opponent and imagine a second line (Line B) running through the shoulders of the guard.

b) The angle between Line B and Line A at the point where the two lines intersect can be 90 degrees (the lines are perpendicular to each other).

c) Or, Line B can be rotated about the point where the two lines intersect from their perpendicular orientation in either direction by as much as 89.999,...,999 degrees (One can have an infinite number of 9's after the decimal point.).

(b) and (c) both meet the requirement of Article 2b.


MTD, Sr.

I never see both of these happening. IMO, the defenders torso never faces the opponent.