How does your state rank?

[JRutledge]

Who the best officials are is always going to be subjective. What is the basis for who is the best anyway?

I think a lot of guys who claim they should be at a certain point often are not very deserving or are not as good as they think they are.

And actually I have never heard anyone from the IHSA say that only the best work the playoffs. I have only heard what the criteria is and if you follow the criteria you will be considered. And guys thank that means working college or working other levels. Well it is one thing to work a college game with some very decent athletes in a gym with 10 people watching. It is quite another to work a HS game with 3000 and on TV. As much as I love working college games, I have never been as nervous working any of those games at the NAIA or JUCO level that I am working a big time high school game.

And I did not want to mention names, but a couple of those people you mentioned have not worked any further than me. Actually some of those individuals are not holding me back at all.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I agree with you JRut. The problem is that people want to believe there is a system out there whereby the best officials are working deep into the playoffs. That is simply not the case. That system doesn't exist. So rather than saying that they are trying to get the best officials to work the playoff games, the IHSA and I would imagine any other group or person involved in assigning should just be upfront and admit there are other factors that go into assigning these games rather than just ability. You can ignore it or deny it all you want, but the objective of the IHSA is not to put the best officials on playoff games. Their goal is to put mediocre or better officials on these games and to reward people for years of service. If it was, people like McKenna, mcnellis, okeefe, and others would not being doing the games they are doing and people like your friend (probably works in intramurals and outdoor rec at DePaul), you and others would go further than you have. At the same time, officials need to stop obsessing about ratings and who works what games and just concentrate on working hard and getting better. We as a group also need to realize that no matter who runs the system or what the system is there is always going to be people that think the system isn't working.

Best is subjective.

There are so many factors that go into what makes a good official. I'd put play calling as number 1, but there are some intangibles such as game management that are very hard to quantify.

Originally Posted by johnny d

JRut, I agree with you on most of your points on the system in Illinois. Also, I don't have a dog in this show......I do many more college games now than HS so it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other whether I ever go further in the playoffs than I do now. That being said, it is not a myth that the same guys work every year. They might not be doing supers or going down state, but they continue to work regionals and sectionals. Once you get a full regional you will continue to get a full regional until you are dead or quit officiating. Look at some of the names. There are guys that have been officiating for 25+ years and who are well past their prime still working those rounds of the playoffs. If I was a good, young official hoping to make a run in the state playoffs, it would be discouraging to see that.

Why is it discouraging? Because those officials may have to wait a few more years to get their shot at the brass ring?

One of the biggest problems I see are guys who think they should get a state final in their fifth season.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

Why is it discouraging? Because those officials may have to wait a few more years to get their shot at the brass ring?

One of the biggest problems I see are guys who think they should get a state final in their fifth season.

I have worked 3 State Finals in sports other than basketball. I can tell you that I was not ready even close after my 5th year. I had no perspective of the games I was involved in before and if I had the same catch/no catch call 5 or 6 years earlier in my football state final, I would not have been able to handle the criticism that came with that call. There is a lot more to working State Finals than just working the game. You also have to handle people wondering why you are where you are and wondering why you did not do the things they would have done if in the same position. That is not an easy thing to handle. Calling the game is easy, but having people be openly critical in this day and age is not something everyone can or has handled well.

Just look at the 2A State Finals for example and how what happen might follow those officials for the rest of their careers. And not all the officials were directly involved in some of the crap that happened. Even we posted plays here of what took place and this place goes to the world, not just Illinois.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have worked 3 State Finals in sports other than basketball. I can tell you that I was not ready even close after my 5th year. I had no perspective of the games I was involved in before and if I had the same catch/no catch call 5 or 6 years earlier in my football state final, I would not have been able to handle the criticism that came with that call. There is a lot more to working State Finals than just working the game. You also have to handle people wondering why you are where you are and wondering why you did not do the things they would have done if in the same position. That is not an easy thing to handle. Calling the game is easy, but having people be openly critical in this day and age is not something everyone can or has handled well.

Just look at the 2A State Finals for example and how what happen might follow those officials for the rest of their careers. And not all the officials were directly involved in some of the crap that happened. Even we posted plays here of what took place and this place goes to the world, not just Illinois.

Peace

We're singing from the same hymn book.

It's easy to work a game where there's no controversy, no crap, no defining moment where the spotlight is on you when you'd rather it be somewhere else.

Maybe it sounds like I'm just an old guy, but "good" experience counts for something.

That said, it sure does make it hard to break in for some really deserving people. It's not a knock on the guys, though, that have been doing it well for a long time.

What's funny is the most pressure I've felt was umpiring a Little League game. Then again, I'd never worked a plate job on ESPN before, knowing I was going to be criticized by people all over the country if I screwed up.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

We're singing from the same hymn book.

It's easy to work a game where there's no controversy, no crap, no defining moment where the spotlight is on you when you'd rather it be somewhere else.

Maybe it sounds like I'm just an old guy, but "good" experience counts for something.

That said, it sure does make it hard to break in for some really deserving people. It's not a knock on the guys, though, that have been doing it well for a long time.

What's funny is the most pressure I've felt was umpiring a Little League game. Then again, I'd never worked a plate job on ESPN before, knowing I was going to be criticized by people all over the country if I screwed up.

Agreed.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rich

......I was going to be criticized by people all over the country if I screwed up.

Whether you screwed up or not.

Originally Posted by BigT

You could have a brand new official do Varsity or JV and a vet doing Freshman?

Yes. Regular season assignments are all determined by the schools. Either AD's assign themselves, have someone else at the school assign, or hire an assigner. There are probably about 50+ assigners in the state, most with just a handful of schools. There are 3 big assigners that have maybe 30% of the total schools combined. About 50% of schools assign for themselves to save money, so getting games from them involves knowing the AD or making cold calls.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Rich

Best is subjective.

There are so many factors that go into what makes a good official. I'd put play calling as number 1, but there are some intangibles such as game management that are very hard to quantify.

I agree. But there does come a point when a persons inability to get plays right deteriorates to the point where all the intangibles in the world cannot make up for it. The tangibles are much easier to measure and it is pretty evident when watching that a person can no longer handle the level of game they are being asked to work.


One of the biggest problems I see are guys who think they should get a state final in their fifth season

This might be true for the majority, but there are always guys out there that are capable of doing so. We have guys from the Chicago area that were doing mid-major D1 basketball by their 5th year officiating. You think they couldn't handle a state final game?

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well it is one thing to work a college game with some very decent athletes in a gym with 10 people watching. It is quite another to work a HS game with 3000 and on TV.

This is a load of crap. You are either ready to work the game or not. That might take some training and experience to get to the point where you can handle the on the court stuff. After that there is nothing one can do to practice or simulate working games in front of big crowds other than going out there and doing it. Some people will be able to handle this and others wont, but working more games in front of small crowds isn't going to make you any more prepared to handle this situation when it arises.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnny d

This is a load of crap. You are either ready to work the game or not. That might take some training and experience to get to the point where you can handle the on the court stuff. After that there is nothing one can do to practice or simulate working games in front of big crowds other than going out there and doing it. Some people will be able to handle this and others wont, but working more games in front of small crowds isn't going to make you any more prepared to handle this situation when it arises.

I'm sorry, but I don't see anything in there that would lead one to believe Rut's comments were a load of crap. Was there a point in his post that you're disagreeing with? If so, I don't see it here.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well it is one thing to work a college game with some very decent athletes in a gym with 10 people watching. It is quite another to work a HS game with 3000 and on TV.

Actually...I thought this was one of JRut's most insightful posts ever.

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well it is one thing to work a college game with some very decent athletes in a gym with 10 people watching. It is quite another to work a HS game with 3000 and on TV.

Originally Posted by johnny d

This is a load of crap.

Nope. Not a load of crap at all. Right on the mark. I can tell you from first hand experience there is a WORLD of difference.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by johnny d

This might be true for the majority, but there are always guys out there that are capable of doing so. We have guys from the Chicago area that were doing mid-major D1 basketball by their 5th year officiating. You think they couldn't handle a state final game?

There are a lot of guys that are working D1 you could make a case are not that good either. And if you listen to some veterans (who you may know) some never should have gotten there at all. So it is still subjective what or who is the best.

Peace

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm sorry, but I don't see anything in there that would lead one to believe Rut's comments were a load of crap. Was there a point in his post that you're disagreeing with? If so, I don't see it here.

I was disagree with the statement that it makes a difference if there are 10 people in the stands or 3000 and that one can better handle working in front of 3000 with more experience. The experience one gains by working games can make your judgment better, you can learn to be in better positions, work on your mechanics, and manage a game better. But it doesn't matter how many games you work in front of small crowds you will not get better at working in front of big crowds. You will never know if you can or cannot handle working in front of big crowds until you are put in that situation and if you cant handle it, all the experience in the world will not make you any better at it. The ability to not care or worry about the stuff that is going on outside of the game on the court is innate. You either have it or you don't.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There are a lot of guys that are working D1 you could make a case are not that good either. And if you listen to some veterans (who you may know) some never should have gotten there at all. So it is still subjective what or who is the best.

Peace

You are right, just because they are working D1 doesn't mean they are good. However, regardless of whether or not they are good, they would not last at the D1 level if they were intimidated or overwhelmed by the experience. Therefore, the young official can be as good, better, or worse than the more experienced official and be just as capable of working the state final game.