How does your state rank?

[BigT]

I am sure across the country we have anything from good ole boys network to 3rd party anonymous evaluators to determine a referees ranking.

I would love to hear one thing you like and one thing you dislike about your current HS or College system for ranking your areas officials. Or even how you would do it if you were the person responsible for changing things up.

Thanks in advance

[johnny d]

I would put myself at the top of the list and then I would have cage matches to determine the rest of the order. Person with the most wins gets 2nd and then we work our way down from there.

[Camron Rust]

Our system is the worst one except for all of the others.

Fundamentally, you're NEVER going to have a system that a lot of people think is fair. Almost every official thinks they they should be in the top. It doesn't' really matter how they are rated, many of them will always think they're getting cheated or overlooked. Change the system all you want, and you'll still have people that think they are better than they are. Surveys that have been conducted in the past show that 80%+ of the people think they are in the top 50%....at least 30% of them are wrong and that doesn't even consider where they think they fell within the top 50% or where those actually in the top 50% believed they should be within that range.

Of course, that doesn't mean that all systems are the same, just that if your goal is to make people happy with it, forget about it.

[Raymond]

I have no idea how, or if, my state ranks officials. I've only seen state observers after the regional play-offs start.

College-wise, I assume the amount of games someone works for a supervisor is indicative of his ranking. Of course I have no way of knowing how many games someone else works unless I scour every box score and keep a running tabulation.

[BatteryPowered]

I never cared what kind of schedule other officials worked. If you work hard to constantly improve and be the best official you can be...that is all you can do. If someone wants to think highly of you they will.

Every evaluator has his/her personal preferences. Just because you do not fit into the mold of one does not mean you want be a star to someone else.

I honestly believe that if you work hard and do your best (be it officiating, work, etc.) opportunities will come you way. Control what you can control and don't worry about everything else.

But that's just me...

[BillyMac]

Rating, and ranking, system in my local board here in my little corner of Connecticut:

All four officials (two person games) junior varsity, and varsity, at the game site secretly (numeric system through Arbiter) rate each other. Rating is based on appearance (we are allowed to wear black belts) and conditioning, mechanics, team work, judgment, and game management. Varsity officials should arrive at the game site no later than the beginning of the second period of the junior varsity game. Junior varsity officials should stay and observe the varsity game until at least halftime of the varsity game. Many varsity officials try to show up for the beginning of the junior varsity game, and many junior varsity officials will often stay to observe the entire varsity game. Officials working middle school, and freshman, games will usually only rate their partners.

Peer ratings count 80% of your overall rating. The remaining 20% is based on interpretation (new rules), and business, meetings attendance, refresher exam workshop attendance, and assignment commissioner availability, and cooperating with the assignment commissioner.

A three year (most recent) average rating produces a ranking.

The level (varsity, or subvarsity) of regular season games assigned, and number of regular season games assigned, is based on ranking.

Generally, the top eighty officials are considered "full varsity", and will only work varsity games. The next thirty are considered "split" officials, and will work both varsity, and subvarsity games. The rest are considered subvarsity officials, who will only work subvarsity games.

Three subvarsity years (first probationary year doesn't count) are needed to move up to a "split" ranking (both subvarsity and varsity games). Three "split" years are needed to move up to a "full varsity" ranking. Both moves assume that good ratings improve an official's ranking, it may take longer than three years, or it may never happen.

Officials can move up, or they can move down. They aren't Supreme Court justices, nor are any of our officials the pope.

Connecticut state tournament ranking system:

State tournament assignments are only based on voting of all varsity coaches. Coaches can select (vote for) up to about a dozen officials for their state tournament "list", even those coaches who do not qualify the tournament by winning 40% of their regular season games. Generally, the more votes an official receives, the farther he works into the state tournament. Officials from my local board can only work state tournament games in which both teams are from my local board's geographic area, or in which neither team is from my local board geographic area. If a state tournament game involves one team from my local geographic area, and another team from outside my local geographic area, then we won't work that game.

[BigT]

Thank you. I know most officials want to be ranked higher or think they are better than they are.

I just wanted to hear how some places do it. I know someone said they had 3rd party people evaluate to help with rankings. If you work Varsity and you want to work a lot of games why would you want more varsity officials. You are going to slow down people moving up.

Thanks again for this level of detail and I hope to hear more.

I had a friend who has been refereeing mostly rec ball and running a charter HS league. He moves to Texas and works one JV scrimmage and gets a Varsity schedule. Maybe that is how it can work in Texas.

I just love hearing about systems because some are better than others.

[j51969]

This is the first year IL is solely using Coaches ratings. To my knowledge there isn't a lot of guidance for how this will actually shake out. My association is currently drafting a letter the IHSA with our concerns. The old numerical system factored in points for being selected in the top 15 of your association, and ratings by other certified officials. The coaches in my opinion have never done a good job in rating varsity officials after games (In a timely manner, or at all). Even though I have 20+ in basketball, this is only my 6th year here in IL. I am only recognized at this point. Until I can take my test to be certified next year I won’t get a sniff of the tournament no matter how well I am rated. No system is perfect and I believe without max participation this will be a step backwards. Talking to many Varsity coaches a big complaint is seeing many of the same officials year after year. However, when the rubber meets the road they rate many of same guys at the top each year. I guess familiarity is preferred over taking a chance on someone new. I also believe this is why many good young officials move toward putting more effort in small college basketball. Theory being if you have to put as much effort into cementing yourself in the High School scene, why not use that time to advance to the next level. After what happened in the 2A championship I am sure they are looking for ways to mitigate this from happening again. JMO

[BigT]

Originally Posted by j51969

This is the first year IL is solely using Coaches ratings. To my knowledge there isn't a lot of guidance for how this will actually shake out. My association is currently drafting a letter the IHSA with our concerns. The old numerical system factored in points for being selected in the top 15 of your association, and ratings by other certified officials. The coaches in my opinion have never done a good job in rating varsity officials after games (In a timely manner, or at all). Even though I have 20+ in basketball, this is only my 6th year here in IL. I am only recognized at this point. Until I can take my test to be certified next year I won’t get a sniff of the tournament no matter how well I am rated. No system is perfect and I believe without max participation this will be a step backwards. Talking to many Varsity coaches a big complaint is seeing many of the same officials year after year. However, when the rubber meets the road they rate many of same guys at the top each year. I guess familiarity is preferred over taking a chance on someone new. I also believe this is why many good young officials move toward putting more effort in small college basketball. Theory being if you have to put as much effort into cementing yourself in the High School scene, why not use that time to advance to the next level. After what happened in the 2A championship I am sure they are looking for ways to mitigate this from happening again. JMO

I think that is happening here too. Thanks for letting us know more about IL.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by j51969

This is the first year IL is solely using Coaches ratings. To my knowledge there isn't a lot of guidance for how this will actually shake out. My association is currently drafting a letter the IHSA with our concerns. The old numerical system factored in points for being selected in the top 15 of your association, and ratings by other certified officials. The coaches in my opinion have never done a good job in rating varsity officials after games (In a timely manner, or at all). Even though I have 20+ in basketball, this is only my 6th year here in IL. I am only recognized at this point. Until I can take my test to be certified next year I won’t get a sniff of the tournament no matter how well I am rated. No system is perfect and I believe without max participation this will be a step backwards. Talking to many Varsity coaches a big complaint is seeing many of the same officials year after year. However, when the rubber meets the road they rate many of same guys at the top each year. I guess familiarity is preferred over taking a chance on someone new. I also believe this is why many good young officials move toward putting more effort in small college basketball. Theory being if you have to put as much effort into cementing yourself in the High School scene, why not use that time to advance to the next level. After what happened in the 2A championship I am sure they are looking for ways to mitigate this from happening again. JMO

So what exactly are you advocating for? According to you, the same guys are working the playoffs year after year. I hate to tell you, but that has been going on since before officials could rate each other and associations could submit top 15 lists, while officials could rate each other and associations submitted top 15 lists, and will continue now that officials and associations no longer have that power.

I hate to burst your bubble, but the same thing happens in college basketball as well. Coaches can and will complain all the time about some guys being too old, past their prime, or working and traveling to too many games. They will insist that the system needs to change. Guess what happens when they see new guys or young guys on their games.....they are on the phone telling the assignor they want the old familiar guys back on their games. Work the other guys on someone else's games.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by BigT

I had a friend who has been refereeing mostly rec ball and running a charter HS league. He moves to Texas and works one JV scrimmage and gets a Varsity schedule. Maybe that is how it can work in Texas.

You can't assume that all of Texas does the same thing just because of this one alleged situation. Each association (they call them chapters here) in the state is independent in how they assign and rank. Each one covers a certain geographic/district area. Some are very small and some are very big. The association I am a member of happens to be one of the best in the state (based on the state final assignments of the recent past) and every official is evaluated and ranked prior to the season. It's not a perfect system, but it's about as good as any other I've seen. With over 400 members, it's very difficult. The assignor makes it very clear that on any given night he will put the best available officials in the most important games. The word important can be based on different factors for different games.

[j51969]

Originally Posted by johnny d

So what exactly are you advocating for? According to you, the same guys are working the playoffs year after year. I hate to tell you, but that has been going on since before officials could rate each other and associations could submit top 15 lists, while officials could rate each other and associations submitted top 15 lists, and will continue now that officials and associations no longer have that power.

I hate to burst your bubble, but the same thing happens in college basketball as well. Coaches can and will complain all the time about some guys being too old, past their prime, or working and traveling to too many games. They will insist that the system needs to change. Guess what happens when they see new guys or young guys on their games.....they are on the phone telling the assignor they want the old familiar guys back on their games. Work the other guys on someone else's games.

1. None of this is according to me. I believe I stated that these are based on conversations with coaches/officials who have been a part of IL basketball for a long time. I moved here from Indianapolis in 2007. The exact same complaints and gripes were going on there regardless of what system was in place. Coaches and officials year after year talk about the same issues.

2. I am not really an advocate of any system. If I eventually get a game in the HS playoffs great, and if I don't that's ok. Personally as a full time Soldier I move around a lot. I have lived as far north as Loves Park, IL and as far south as Benton, IL. Currently I have moved back to the Central part of the state in Champaign. Each time I have to join associations that will help me start over (nature of the beast).

3. As far as the good ole boy system, that's life. Sometimes is helps you and sometimes it hurts you. Basketball aside this is how business get conducted every day. I couldn't get anything accomplished if it weren't for the personal relationships I collected over the years. So why should basketball be any different? Not sure if you’re aware, but the military has a few type A personalities in it as well (Coaches/Officials). None of this affects me directly.

Are you somehow connected to the decision making involving the assigning of IL HS basketball officials? If so, maybe you are taking exception to my comments. Otherwise, nothing you said was news to anyone who works in a competitive field.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by j51969

1. None of this is according to me. I believe I stated that these are based on conversations with coaches/officials who have been a part of IL basketball for a long time. I moved here from Indianapolis in 2007. The exact same complaints and gripes were going on there regardless of what system was in place. Coaches and officials year after year talk about the same issues.

2. I am not really an advocate of any system. If I eventually get a game in the HS playoffs great, and if I don't that's ok. Personally as a full time Soldier I move around a lot. I have lived as far north as Loves Park, IL and as far south as Benton, IL. Currently I have moved back to the Central part of the state in Champaign. Each time I have to join associations that will help me start over (nature of the beast).

3. As far as the good ole boy system, that's life. Sometimes is helps you and sometimes it hurts you. Basketball aside this is how business get conducted every day. I couldn't get anything accomplished if it weren't for the personal relationships I collected over the years. So why should basketball be any different? Not sure if you’re aware, but the military has a few type A personalities in it as well (Coaches/Officials). None of this affects me directly.

Are you somehow connected to the decision making involving the assigning of IL HS basketball officials? If so, maybe you are taking exception to my comments. Otherwise, nothing you said was news to anyone who works in a competitive field.

I am not involved in assigning or decision making for IHSA in any manner. I was just responding to your statement that your association was writing a letter regarding the groups concerns about the new rating system and connecting that to your conversations with coaches/officials that complain that the same people continue to do all the playoff games. My point was that those same people were doing all the playoff games in the old system, in the previous system that just ended, and most likely in the new system just implemented. So I wasn't sure exactly what or how your association wants the IHSA to change.

My second point, was that things are not much different at the college level as far as guys getting games and other officials/coaches complaining about how many games they work.

My last point, and I think we agree here, is that the same people doing most of the complaining (i.e. coaches) are the ones that have the most ability to change the situation and yet do the least to effect change or complain even louder when the change affects them.

[Scratch85]

j51969, looks like you ended up in the same situation that you left in IN. It was great last year, my State Assoc. made a few changes that allowed us to have a say in our rating. They pretty much took that away this year and we are in a worst case scenario now. The only advantage anyone has is how far you have gone in the post season. So it knocks the new guys back even farther.

johnny d, you are spot on. It has been going on forever at all levels and will continue to go on.

Here is the caveat; It fits the State Associations perfectly and there is no reason to change. And, there shouldn't be reason to change. It is not our games as refs. It is the schools games and we are just part of it. We are there to accomodate the schools and the State Associations. It is the field that we play on.

yea, I figure caveat needs some of those French thing-a-ma-jigs in there somewhere but I haven't any idea how to do that.

Call the game that you feel is proper and everything else takes care of itself. If that doesn't provide what you are after, change the game you call. Or go fight the battle elsewhere, but it will be much the same.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The OhioHSAA has a system where the varsity coaches tell the assigners what officials are acceptabale to officiate. Kind of like letting the inmates run the prison. Camron, this is the system that is better than yours, LOL!

MTD, Sr.