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Old Fri Oct 25, 2013, 05:11pm
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Elbow Swing

If B1 swings her elbows and makes non-incidental contact with an elbow to the head of A1, what type of foul can result?

My answer was Flagrant..based on many discussions here that above the shoulder contact with an elbow is a Flagrant foul. The answer given was it could be common, Intentional or Flagrant.

Thoughts?
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Old Fri Oct 25, 2013, 05:36pm
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I've got intentional or flagrant. Not common. New rule within the last year or so.
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Old Fri Oct 25, 2013, 05:59pm
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2012-13 Points Of Emphasis ...

2. Contact above the shoulders. With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations the committee determined that more guidance is needed for penalizing contact above the shoulders.

a. A player shall not swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent. Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. Currently it is a violation in Rule 9 Section 13 Article.

b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
1. Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.
2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.
3. A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul.
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Old Fri Oct 25, 2013, 08:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
I've got intentional or flagrant. Not common. New rule within the last year or so.
Yet there was more than one state that interpreted "movement" to be relative to the body. So, a normal pivot where the elbow was moving exactly with the body, in those states, was ruled to be common. If the elbow was moving faster than the body but not excessive, then it would be intentional. If excessive, flagrant.
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Old Fri Oct 25, 2013, 09:00pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Yet there was more than one state that interpreted "movement" to be relative to the body. So, a normal pivot where the elbow was moving exactly with the body, in those states, was ruled to be common. If the elbow was moving faster than the body but not excessive, then it would be intentional. If excessive, flagrant.
True. Mine was one.
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Old Fri Oct 25, 2013, 09:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Yet there was more than one state that interpreted "movement" to be relative to the body. So, a normal pivot where the elbow was moving exactly with the body, in those states, was ruled to be common. If the elbow was moving faster than the body but not excessive, then it would be intentional. If excessive, flagrant.
Correct yet again Camron and Adam...

Long discussion last year. I called it the way Camron listed it. We had disagreements within our association.
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Old Sat Oct 26, 2013, 10:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Yet there was more than one state that interpreted "movement" to be relative to the body. So, a normal pivot where the elbow was moving exactly with the body, in those states, was ruled to be common. If the elbow was moving faster than the body but not excessive, then it would be intentional. If excessive, flagrant.

Camron:

What you say is how it should be called.

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Old Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:22am
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Excessively Swinging Elbows ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
If the elbow was moving faster than the body but not excessive, then it would be intentional. If excessive, flagrant.
I was under the impression, for interpretation purposes, that the unofficial definition, for purposes of calling the swinging elbow violation, was the elbow moving (rotating) faster than the body? How can we have an elbow moving faster than the body but not excessive? Do we have two different unofficial definitions of an excessively swinging elbow, one for a violations, and another one for fouls, of various types?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 11:45am.
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Old Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I was under the impression, for interpretation purposes, that the unofficial definition, for purposes of calling the swinging elbow violation, was the elbow moving (rotating) faster than the body? How can we have an elbow moving faster than the body but not excessive? Do we have two different unofficial definitions of an excessively swinging elbow, one for a violations, and another one for fouls, of various types?
Of course, what I'm about to say is unofficial:

One could be excessively swinging elbow(s) in a careless manner in order to create space or "get people off me" and catches someone above the shoulders.

Then you have someone who excessively swings their elbows with an intended destination, an opponents face/head; IOW, targeting.
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Old Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:37am
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Of course, what I'm about to say is unofficial:

One could be excessively swinging elbow(s) in a careless manner in order to create space or "get people off me" and catches someone above the shoulders.

Then you have someone who excessively swings their elbows with an intended destination, an opponents face/head; IOW, targeting.
Agreed. I'm not going to flagrant until I see intent or complete disregard for safety.
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Old Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:44am
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Confused In Connecticut ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
Of course, what I'm about to say is unofficial
BadNewsRef: You're post is safe with me. I swear that I won't repeat this to anyone except for the few people that use the internet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
One could be excessively swinging elbow(s) in a careless manner in order to create space or "get people off me" and catches someone above the shoulders. Then you have someone who excessively swings their elbows with an intended destination, an opponents face/head; IOW, targeting.
Thanks for the valiant attempt, but I'm still confused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
If the elbow was moving faster than the body but not excessive ...
How can we have an elbow moving faster than the body but not excessive? For thirty-two years we've been taught (unofficially) to call the excessive swinging elbow violation (didn't this used to be a technical foul at one point?) for elbows that are swinging faster than the pivoting player, without any contact.

Is this (elbows that are swinging faster than the pivoting player) no longer the (unofficial) definition of an excessively swinging elbow? Can't we still use this definition (elbows that are swinging faster than the pivoting player) for when contact is made, and decide to go with an intentional, or flagrant, but never a common, foul?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 01:05pm.
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Old Sun Oct 27, 2013, 11:46am
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Complete Disregard For Safety ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
I'm not going to flagrant until I see intent or complete disregard for safety.
Where's the "Like" button on this website? By the way, if I did click it, it would mean that I liked the post, not necessarily the poster. I want to be sure that I make this perfectly clear. One is judged by the company he keeps, and I've got a reputation to maintain.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Oct 27, 2013 at 12:08pm.
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Old Mon Oct 28, 2013, 01:55am
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Old Mon Oct 28, 2013, 04:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canuckrefguy View Post
So as I read the rule, this should be an intentional foul.
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Old Mon Oct 28, 2013, 06:09am
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By The Book ...

Nice video canuckrefguy. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes View Post
So as I read the rule, this should be an intentional foul.
2012-13 Points Of Emphasis
b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.

Using my old fashioned unofficial definition (elbows that are swinging faster than the pivoting player), I would not call this excessive swinging (with no contact I would not call this an excessive swinging violation), but, in the spirit, and intent (be careful swinging elbows near other player's heads), of the rule change, a few years ago, I would call this an intentional foul.

But, then again, the NFHS rule change confused me back when it came out, we still have come confusion among our local board members, and it still confuses me, so I'm open to other interpretations.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Oct 28, 2013 at 06:14am.
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