Elbow Swing

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I was under the impression, for interpretation purposes, that the unofficial definition, for purposes of calling the swinging elbow violation, was the elbow moving (rotating) faster than the body? How can we have an elbow moving faster than the body but not excessive? Do we have two different unofficial definitions of an excessively swinging elbow, one for a violations, and another one for fouls, of various types?

Of course, what I'm about to say is unofficial:

One could be excessively swinging elbow(s) in a careless manner in order to create space or "get people off me" and catches someone above the shoulders.

Then you have someone who excessively swings their elbows with an intended destination, an opponents face/head; IOW, targeting.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Of course, what I'm about to say is unofficial:

One could be excessively swinging elbow(s) in a careless manner in order to create space or "get people off me" and catches someone above the shoulders.

Then you have someone who excessively swings their elbows with an intended destination, an opponents face/head; IOW, targeting.

Agreed. I'm not going to flagrant until I see intent or complete disregard for safety.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm not going to flagrant until I see intent or complete disregard for safety.

Where's the "Like" button on this website? By the way, if I did click it, it would mean that I liked the post, not necessarily the poster. I want to be sure that I make this perfectly clear. One is judged by the company he keeps, and I've got a reputation to maintain.

[canuckrefguy]

Download Video as MP4

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Download Video as MP4

So as I read the rule, this should be an intentional foul.

[BillyMac]

Nice video canuckrefguy. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So as I read the rule, this should be an intentional foul.

2012-13 Points Of Emphasis
b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.

Using my old fashioned unofficial definition (elbows that are swinging faster than the pivoting player), I would not call this excessive swinging (with no contact I would not call this an excessive swinging violation), but, in the spirit, and intent (be careful swinging elbows near other player's heads), of the rule change, a few years ago, I would call this an intentional foul.

But, then again, the NFHS rule change confused me back when it came out, we still have come confusion among our local board members, and it still confuses me, so I'm open to other interpretations.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Download Video as MP4

This elbow is moving faster than his body, in my opinion it's intentional.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by OKREF

This elbow is moving faster than his body, in my opinion it's intentional.

Agree, he was moving elbow from one side of his torso to the other and raising from low to high while also turning. Intentional Foul.

It would have been different if he had raised them before turning and didn't bring them across his body...and didn't lead with them.

[ballgame99]

Had a play last night I was trying to get some clarification on and I don't have my rule book handy. We had a rebounder come down and start swinging elbows. No contact was made with any of them. My partner calls a technical for excessive elbows. I asked if there was contact made and his reply was that it didn't matter. I let him take the call and he got a bunch of crap for it.

After the game we were discussing it and I told him I thought it there was swinging and no contact that it was a violation, and if there was contact the penalty would depend on the severity of the contact. Plus I told him I thought it was an intentional foul rather than a technical. He was certain he had called it right and that if there WERE any contact it was flagrant and auto ejection.

This thread discusses the various degrees of contact and how they should be penalized but it doesn't really discuss if no contact is made. Am I thinking right that elbows with no contact is just a violation? Bonus points if you know the rules citation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Of course, what I'm about to say is unofficial

BadNewsRef: You're post is safe with me. I swear that I won't repeat this to anyone except for the few people that use the internet.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

One could be excessively swinging elbow(s) in a careless manner in order to create space or "get people off me" and catches someone above the shoulders. Then you have someone who excessively swings their elbows with an intended destination, an opponents face/head; IOW, targeting.

Thanks for the valiant attempt, but I'm still confused.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If the elbow was moving faster than the body but not excessive ...

How can we have an elbow moving faster than the body but not excessive? For thirty-two years we've been taught (unofficially) to call the excessive swinging elbow violation (didn't this used to be a technical foul at one point?) for elbows that are swinging faster than the pivoting player, without any contact.

Is this (elbows that are swinging faster than the pivoting player) no longer the (unofficial) definition of an excessively swinging elbow? Can't we still use this definition (elbows that are swinging faster than the pivoting player) for when contact is made, and decide to go with an intentional, or flagrant, but never a common, foul?