Elbow Swing

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If the elbow was moving faster than the body but not excessive, then it would be intentional. If excessive, flagrant.

I was under the impression, for interpretation purposes, that the unofficial definition, for purposes of calling the swinging elbow violation, was the elbow moving (rotating) faster than the body? How can we have an elbow moving faster than the body but not excessive? Do we have two different unofficial definitions of an excessively swinging elbow, one for a violations, and another one for fouls, of various types?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I was under the impression, for interpretation purposes, that the unofficial definition, for purposes of calling the swinging elbow violation, was the elbow moving (rotating) faster than the body? How can we have an elbow moving faster than the body but not excessive? Do we have two different unofficial definitions of an excessively swinging elbow, one for a violations, and another one for fouls, of various types?

Of course, what I'm about to say is unofficial:

One could be excessively swinging elbow(s) in a careless manner in order to create space or "get people off me" and catches someone above the shoulders.

Then you have someone who excessively swings their elbows with an intended destination, an opponents face/head; IOW, targeting.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Of course, what I'm about to say is unofficial:

One could be excessively swinging elbow(s) in a careless manner in order to create space or "get people off me" and catches someone above the shoulders.

Then you have someone who excessively swings their elbows with an intended destination, an opponents face/head; IOW, targeting.

Agreed. I'm not going to flagrant until I see intent or complete disregard for safety.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm not going to flagrant until I see intent or complete disregard for safety.

Where's the "Like" button on this website? By the way, if I did click it, it would mean that I liked the post, not necessarily the poster. I want to be sure that I make this perfectly clear. One is judged by the company he keeps, and I've got a reputation to maintain.

[canuckrefguy]

Download Video as MP4

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Download Video as MP4

So as I read the rule, this should be an intentional foul.

[BillyMac]

Nice video canuckrefguy. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

So as I read the rule, this should be an intentional foul.

2012-13 Points Of Emphasis
b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.

Using my old fashioned unofficial definition (elbows that are swinging faster than the pivoting player), I would not call this excessive swinging (with no contact I would not call this an excessive swinging violation), but, in the spirit, and intent (be careful swinging elbows near other player's heads), of the rule change, a few years ago, I would call this an intentional foul.

But, then again, the NFHS rule change confused me back when it came out, we still have come confusion among our local board members, and it still confuses me, so I'm open to other interpretations.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Download Video as MP4

This elbow is moving faster than his body, in my opinion it's intentional.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by OKREF

This elbow is moving faster than his body, in my opinion it's intentional.

Agree, he was moving elbow from one side of his torso to the other and raising from low to high while also turning. Intentional Foul.

It would have been different if he had raised them before turning and didn't bring them across his body...and didn't lead with them.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Of course, what I'm about to say is unofficial

BadNewsRef: You're post is safe with me. I swear that I won't repeat this to anyone except for the few people that use the internet.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

One could be excessively swinging elbow(s) in a careless manner in order to create space or "get people off me" and catches someone above the shoulders. Then you have someone who excessively swings their elbows with an intended destination, an opponents face/head; IOW, targeting.

Thanks for the valiant attempt, but I'm still confused.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If the elbow was moving faster than the body but not excessive ...

How can we have an elbow moving faster than the body but not excessive? For thirty-two years we've been taught (unofficially) to call the excessive swinging elbow violation (didn't this used to be a technical foul at one point?) for elbows that are swinging faster than the pivoting player, without any contact.

Is this (elbows that are swinging faster than the pivoting player) no longer the (unofficial) definition of an excessively swinging elbow? Can't we still use this definition (elbows that are swinging faster than the pivoting player) for when contact is made, and decide to go with an intentional, or flagrant, but never a common, foul?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I was under the impression, for interpretation purposes, that the unofficial definition, for purposes of calling the swinging elbow violation, was the elbow moving (rotating) faster than the body? How can we have an elbow moving faster than the body but not excessive? Do we have two different unofficial definitions of an excessively swinging elbow, one for a violations, and another one for fouls, of various types?

In a pivot/step where the upper body is moving in sync with the feet, perhaps with the elbows up and mostly out of the way and there happens to be contact with an elbow. I'm not going intentional on that. I might not even have a foul on that.

Twisting at the waist with the elbow out but not viciously, intentional.

Slinging them hard at someone, flagrant.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

In a pivot/step where the upper body is moving in sync with the feet, perhaps with the elbows up and mostly out of the way and there happens to be contact with an elbow. I'm not going intentional on that. I might not even have a foul on that.

I'm calling this (above) elbow movement, but not excessive.

Doesn't the NFHS want us to go with intentional on such movement?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
1. Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.
2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.
3. A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul.

Such movement without contact would be legal, and not subject to the excessive swinging elbow violation, but if there's contact, it supposed to be intentional? Am I understating this correctly, because, I think, that it's the way I'm going to call it?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm calling this (above) elbow movement, but not excessive.

Doesn't the NFHS want us to go with intentional on such movement?



Such movement without contact would be legal, and not subject to the excessive swinging elbow violation, but if there's contact, it supposed to be intentional? Am I understating this correctly, because, I think, that it's the way I'm going to call it?

Set the tone for your local officials, that what I say.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm calling this (above) elbow movement, but not excessive.

Doesn't the NFHS want us to go with intentional on such movement?



Such movement without contact would be legal, and not subject to the excessive swinging elbow violation, but if there's contact, it supposed to be intentional? Am I understating this correctly, because, I think, that it's the way I'm going to call it?

Not according to the powerpoint my state was given, along with telephonic confirmation, from NFHS. Not every state seems to have gotten the memo, though, or we got the wrong one.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Not according to the powerpoint my state was given, along with telephonic confirmation, from NFHS.

Please enlighten me.