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Old Wed Oct 25, 2006, 06:47pm
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elbow(s)

this is my first year working college games; I'm studying the NCAA rulebook, noting differences between the high school & college game. The difference in the rule for excessively swinging arm(s) or elbow(s) surprised me. In college, if B1 violates while A1's try is in flight, the violation is ignored if the try is successful. That's not the case in high school. Why no penalty for the violation in college on a made basket?

Last edited by mdray; Wed Oct 25, 2006 at 07:14pm.
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Old Wed Oct 25, 2006, 07:00pm
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How many of us have actually called a excessively swinging arm(s) or elbow(s) violation on any level?
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Old Wed Oct 25, 2006, 07:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdray
this is my first year working college games; I'm studying the NCAA rulebook, noting differences between the high school & college game. The difference in the rule for excessively swinging arm(s) or elbow(s) surprised me. In college, if B1 violates while A1's try is in flight, the violation is ignored if the try is successful. The ball is awarded to team B at the designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred. That's not the case in high school. Why no penalty for the violation in college?
There's only no penalty in this case if A1's try goes in.
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Old Wed Oct 25, 2006, 07:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwanr1
How many of us have actually called a excessively swinging arm(s) or elbow(s) violation on any level?
I have.
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Old Wed Oct 25, 2006, 09:08pm
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Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
I have.
Me three!
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Old Wed Oct 25, 2006, 09:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwanr1
How many of us have actually called a excessively swinging arm(s) or elbow(s) violation on any level?
I have but not at the V level. I had a few FR and JV a couple years back. Seems like it's not as common the higher the level OR....they actually make contact!
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Old Fri Oct 27, 2006, 12:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwanr1
How many of us have actually called a excessively swinging arm(s) or elbow(s) violation on any level?
Me four. I've called it a few times at lower levels. You don't normally see it at higher levels, because it's coached out of them. At lower levels, players see a legitimate move (securing the ball with the elbows out) and misinterpret it by swinging the elbows to protect themselves.

Once, when I called it, the coach of the offending player told me to get the other team off his player. I ignored him in spite of my urge to ask him how he expected me to word the request to get the other team to stop playing legal defense.
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Old Fri Oct 27, 2006, 12:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwanr1
How many of us have actually called a excessively swinging arm(s) or elbow(s) violation on any level?
Me five!
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Old Fri Oct 27, 2006, 05:23am
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Originally Posted by mdray
Why no penalty for the violation in college on a made basket?
I don't know and since no one else has answered your question, perhaps they don't know either.
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Old Fri Oct 27, 2006, 10:14am
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Once, when I called it, the coach of the offending player told me to get the other team off his player. I ignored him in spite of my urge to ask him how he expected me to word the request to get the other team to stop playing legal defense.
The coach may not understand the sublety involved. It is illegal to swing elbows, even without making contact, while some amount of contact by the defense is permitted in the normal course of play.

I think though that he was trying to tell you his player was swinging his elbows because he was being hammered. Coaches tend to see things simply. "If my player is touched, it's a foul."

Maybe the defense had a forearm on him.
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Old Fri Oct 27, 2006, 10:18am
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I call it at least once a year I would estimate.
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Old Fri Oct 27, 2006, 01:16pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref
I don't know and since no one else has answered your question, perhaps they don't know either.
Probably because there's no advantage gained if the basket is made. Best to play on. It's a violation, not a foul.

By the way, anyone ever seen and/or called a defensive violation for swinging the elbows?
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Old Fri Oct 27, 2006, 01:26pm
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But Snaq, if the measuring stick is "advantage" why penalize the offense if it occurs? If the offensive team commits this violation while a shot is in fllight, the rule book says the field goal, if successful, doesn't count.

It seems to me we're penalizing the offense for the violation. But if the defensive team does it - and the shot goes in - there is no penalty.
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Old Fri Oct 27, 2006, 01:31pm
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Originally Posted by Nu1
But Snaq, if the measuring stick is "advantage" why penalize the offense if it occurs? If the offensive team commits this violation while a shot is in fllight, the rule book says the field goal, if successful, doesn't count.

It seems to me we're penalizing the offense for the violation. But if the defensive team does it - and the shot goes in - there is no penalty.
Got me on that one. Don't know. It's probaly just a quirky loophole in the rules that hasn't been addressed because it doesn't really happen. Ever actually seen a player without the ball swing the elbows enough for a violation call?
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Old Fri Oct 27, 2006, 02:12pm
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Snagwells: I was headed for my rule book until you said - every seen someone without the ball swinging his elbows - So true. Well said.
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