How much elbow swing is too much

[mccoachmike]

Just found this site. Lots of good info. But let me get to the point.

At practice last night, the coach of our other 8yr old girls team was teaching the kids to rebound, and swing the elbows on the way down. I told her that I believe this is illegal. She claims to have gone to coaching camps, and this is the way they are taught.

I dropped it, and figured I would investigate (I am a director for our gym, so the coaches are my responsibility, so this was not really sticking my nose where it does not belong)

From what I have found, it appears to be a judgement call, as to whether the elbows were being swung, or just protruding during the landing of a rebound.

So where do most people draw the line?

[kgruber]

Yes it is a judgement call. Sorry I don't have my rule book handy but the rule says something like a player cannot swing their elbows "excessively" even if they don't make contact with anyone. EXCESSIVE of course is all open to interpretation so there you have it. The rule also is more specific in that it says that to move your elbows in the normal rebounding of a ball or to get away from a player is acceptable. Sorry I couldn't be more specific with rule and case but I am sure one of the other fine individuals on this site can help us out on that.

Ken

[blindzebra]

It's okay to hold the ball palms together elbows out. The player with the ball in that position may pivot, but if their elbows are moving faster than their hips, they are swing the elbows.

I hope that helps.

[David M]

Rule 9-13-1 A player shall not excessively swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent.

9-13-2 A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under the chin or against the body.

9-13-3 Actions of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive.

Penalty: (Section 13) The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out of bounds spot nearest the violation.

6-7-9 exception 4: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when an excessively swinging arm(s) or elbow(s) violation occurs by an opponent without making contact.

[JRutledge]

Whatever you think it is. Just be consistent and do not nit pick the call. I have only called this once in my entire career. So it is rare to say the least.

Peace

[zebraman]

My rule of thumb is that it's a violation if the elbows rotate faster than the body. Guess what, it's even supported by a rule.

4-24-8a

It is not legal to swing arms and elbows excessively. This occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot.

I've only made this call a couple of times.

Z

[mccoachmike]

Originally posted by zebraman
My rule of thumb is that it's a violation if the elbows rotate faster than the body. Guess what, it's even supported by a rule.

4-24-8a

It is not legal to swing arms and elbows excessively. This occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot.

I've only made this call a couple of times.

Z

Thanks! Now, I will show my stupidity, and ask what rule book does everyone seem to be quoting. I just downloaded the NCAA rules for 2005, and this rule is in there, but it has a different number. There it is 4-34-7a and 4-34-7b.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by mccoachmike
Thanks! Now, I will show my stupidity, and ask what rule book does everyone seem to be quoting. I just downloaded the NCAA rules for 2005, and this rule is in there, but it has a different number. There it is 4-34-7a and 4-34-7b.

The general default here is the NFHS (aka FED, HS) rule book. iT's not avaiable on-line, but you can order one from http://www.nfhs.org

[kgruber]

A coach without a rulebook, I have never seen that before! ;-)

[mccoachmike]

Originally posted by kgruber
A coach without a rulebook, I have never seen that before! ;-)

Yea. Last year was my first year coaching B-Ball. I played for years, so I "knew" the rules right? Wrong.

But hey, I am addressing the problem!

[kgruber]

Mike,

Our comments like these come from years of frustrating situtations dealing with coaches, players, & parents who may know a few rules but are generally clueless.

Our attitude may seem a bit caustic at times but know we appreciate you coming to the forum to help all of us understand the rules better.

I am a newbie to the forum as well and I love it. You get a real cross section of expertise, questions, and attitudes and it all adds up to a great experience for all.

Welcome to the forum!

[Forksref]

Originally posted by blindzebra
It's okay to hold the ball palms together elbows out. The player with the ball in that position may pivot, but if their elbows are moving faster than their hips, they are swing the elbows.

I hope that helps.

Blindzebra has it right. As far as teaching the skill, I'd teach it this way: Don't swing the elbows, but keep them out with the ball close to your torso and PIVOT. Work on front pivot and reverse pivot to keep the ball away from the D. Pivoting is a lost art.

[mccoachmike]

Originally posted by kgruber
Mike,

Our comments like these come from years of frustrating situtations dealing with coaches, players, & parents who may know a few rules but are generally clueless.

Our attitude may seem a bit caustic at times but know we appreciate you coming to the forum to help all of us understand the rules better.

I am a newbie to the forum as well and I love it. You get a real cross section of expertise, questions, and attitudes and it all adds up to a great experience for all.

Welcome to the forum!

Yes, they are, much more so than I would have thought. I learned that last year. I am a director as well as a coach, which basically means I am a bouncer for the out of control crowd. But it also means that I end up explaining rules to those who are open minded enough to ask (most just want to yell at the refs, they get escorted out of the building).

I found I knew more of the rules than people who had been in the league for years. Case in point it the start of this thread, where another coach had been to a coaching camp which was still encouraging swinging of the elbows "to clear out anyone around you"!

But, what really struck me, was how much I did not know. Seems that like life, the more I learn, the only thing I learn is that I have to learn.

But alas, that is why I am here, and ordering the rule books (the simplified and illustrated) seems to be a good idea, in addition to the actual rule book.

I used to play very competitive tennis, and always carried a rule book. Came in handy when people would argue rules. I just never dreamed I would need one in a rec league for kids!!!!!

[kgruber]

Many around the country are in similar situation but don't take the time to really learn the rules. Hats off to you to buck that trend and get yourself educated. This is a great place to be for those interested in the ART of officiating. I would also suggest the Case Book in addition to the cartoon book and the rules book because it takes the rules and applies them to very real game situations which I find very helpful.

Ken