Leaving the court tech?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Variation on the case play: If a player committed a foul resulting in free throws, knew they were going to be subbed and went quietly to the bench and sat down before a substitution opportunity I would probably ask them to come back on the court until they could legally sub. Should I just leave this situation alone, or is this a tenable way to handle it?

Sounds good to me.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by potato

does it have to be both feet? for off ball players. is there any exception? like can the defender step out of bounds for a second to avoid traffic just to get to his guy?

That's a violation on the defense.

In NCAA (at least W, but I think also M), it's a violation if the offense does so and is the first (next) to touch the ball after coming inbounds.

As a practical matter, that's often how it gets called at the FED level (and before that there's often discussion with the players and / or coach to keep the players inbounds on the baseline screens -- which is where it happens most often).

The T is for plays like running OOB, behind the bench and then re-entering at the other end of the court.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by APG

That would be the realistic application of the rule. My point is the rule doesn't mandate both feet be OOB.

No, but I don't think it makes it illegal to "be out of bounds." It's illegal to "leave the court for an unauthorized reason." I don't think a player has left the playing court unless no part of them is touching the playing court. IOW, I see a difference between being out of bounds and having left the playing court.

The problem is, while they very clearly define being out of bounds, "leaving the court" is not really defined. But every time it's described in a case play, it involves the player being completely out of bounds.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Adam

The problem is, while they very clearly define being out of bounds, "leaving the court" is not really defined. But every time it's described in a case play, it involves the player being completely out of bounds.

True ... but "the court" is defined at the beginning of the book. To "leave" the area defined as "the court" in that section, I think it's safe to say you must be completely out of bounds - and this would be consistent with the case plays.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I have read and understood the case play, but don't you think it changes when it is the 5th foul versus 2nd or 3rd? In the case play the player is leaving the court before their legal substitution opportunity. In the OP's case of a 5th foul, the player is replaced immediately anyway, so I think they are leaving during a legal substitution opportunity. Unless the interpretation is they can't sub until we inform the coach and start the timer...

What do you think JAR?

My question to go along with this is when do they become bench personnel? When they leave the court or after their legal substitute enters or when the coach is informed of the 5th foul. The distinction is important in the fact that bench personnel TF results in loss of coaching box and an indirect T foul to the coach.

[bob jenkins]

Post 11 gives a case play (10.3.6C) -- what section of the book (player technical or bench technical?) is that in?

See 4-34 for information on when individuals become players and bench personnel (esp Article 3).

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

My question to go along with this is when do they become bench personnel? When they leave the court or after their legal substitute enters or when the coach is informed of the 5th foul. The distinction is important in the fact that bench personnel TF results in loss of coaching box and an indirect T foul to the coach.

For those without book access at the moment ...

4-34

ART. 3

A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live. A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player or after notification of the coach following his/her disqualification.

Hmm, I always thought a substitute becomes a player (and vice-versa) when they are beckoned onto the court by an official. Is this still applicable or is there a caveat?

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

In NCAA (at least W, but I think also M), it's a violation if the offense does so and is the first (next) to touch the ball after coming inbounds.

This is a violation in NCAA-M as well. In fact, John Adams has included a few plays from last season on his start of the year video and pointed out that this needs to be seen and called.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Hmm, I always thought a substitute becomes a player (and vice-versa) when they are beckoned onto the court by an official. Is this still applicable or is there a caveat?

A substitute legally enters the court by being beckoned by an official.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Hmm, I always thought a substitute becomes a player (and vice-versa) when they are beckoned onto the court by an official. Is this still applicable or is there a caveat?

In most cases "beckoned" and "legally enters" are pretty much synonymous.

When they are not, go by the rule.

The rule is what's stated above.

Note that 4.43.3 says "A6 became a player upon being beckoned and entering the court."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

FED level ... there's often discussion with the players and / or coach to keep the players inbounds on the baseline screens -- which is where it happens most often ...

Bingo. That's where this situation happens the most. If I'm the lead, and the players are almost running into me, then I'm considering calling this violation.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Bingo. That's where this situation happens the most. If I'm the lead, and the players are almost running into me, then I'm considering calling this violation.

Just trip the kid and then tell them if they stayed on the court where they belong they would not have fallen on their face

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Variation on the case play: If a player committed a foul resulting in free throws, knew they were going to be subbed and went quietly to the bench and sat down before a substitution opportunity I would probably ask them to come back on the court until they could legally sub. Should I just leave this situation alone, or is this a tenable way to handle it?

The better way is tell their coach. It happens more than we might think. Just say, “Coach, #xx has to come back on until you sub for him/her.”

[Coach Bill]

Quote:
Originally Posted by potato
does it have to be both feet? for off ball players. is there any exception? like can the defender step out of bounds for a second to avoid traffic just to get to his guy?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's a violation on the defense.

What's the penalty for a violation on the defense in this situation?