Leaving the court tech?

Originally Posted by just another ref

10.3.6.C says the OP is a technical foul.

The OP was on our study guide.

I have read and understood the case play, but don't you think it changes when it is the 5th foul versus 2nd or 3rd? In the case play the player is leaving the court before their legal substitution opportunity. In the OP's case of a 5th foul, the player is replaced immediately anyway, so I think they are leaving during a legal substitution opportunity. Unless the interpretation is they can't sub until we inform the coach and start the timer...

What do you think JAR?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I have read and understood the case play, but don't you think it changes when it is the 5th foul versus 2nd or 3rd? In the case play the player is leaving the court before their legal substitution opportunity. In the OP's case of a 5th foul, the player is replaced immediately anyway, so I think they are leaving during a legal substitution opportunity. Unless the interpretation is they can't sub until we inform the coach and start the timer...

What do you think JAR?

The rule says leaving the court for an unauthorized reason to indicate resentment or disgust. Which is the more important part, the leaving or the indication of resentment/disgust? By the letter, I think you could make the call, but, by the letter you can call a T every time a coach steps outside the box and not many of these get called.

I'd have to see it. It would take quite a display.

The reason I answered was because I had recently seen the situation on the study guide and thought perhaps the OP was preparing for a test.

Originally Posted by just another ref

The rule says leaving the court for an unauthorized reason to indicate resentment or disgust. Which is the more important part, the leaving or the indication of resentment/disgust? By the letter, I think you could make the call, but, by the letter you can call a T every time a coach steps outside the box and not many of these get called.

I'd have to see it. It would take quite a display.

The reason I answered was because I had recently seen the situation on the study guide and thought perhaps the OP was preparing for a test.

Good point. I was treating the demonstration of disgust and the leaving of the court as separate issues, which I see now the rule and case play do not.

I definitely think the display of disgust is more important and would, based on the qualifications for unsporting acts, call a technical.

Variation on the case play: If a player committed a foul resulting in free throws, knew they were going to be subbed and went quietly to the bench and sat down before a substitution opportunity I would probably ask them to come back on the court until they could legally sub. Should I just leave this situation alone, or is this a tenable way to handle it?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Variation on the case play: If a player committed a foul resulting in free throws, knew they were going to be subbed and went quietly to the bench and sat down before a substitution opportunity I would probably ask them to come back on the court until they could legally sub. Should I just leave this situation alone, or is this a tenable way to handle it?

Sounds good to me.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Variation on the case play: If a player committed a foul resulting in free throws, knew they were going to be subbed and went quietly to the bench and sat down before a substitution opportunity I would probably ask them to come back on the court until they could legally sub. Should I just leave this situation alone, or is this a tenable way to handle it?

The better way is tell their coach. It happens more than we might think. Just say, “Coach, #xx has to come back on until you sub for him/her.”

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I have read and understood the case play, but don't you think it changes when it is the 5th foul versus 2nd or 3rd? In the case play the player is leaving the court before their legal substitution opportunity. In the OP's case of a 5th foul, the player is replaced immediately anyway, so I think they are leaving during a legal substitution opportunity. Unless the interpretation is they can't sub until we inform the coach and start the timer...

What do you think JAR?

My question to go along with this is when do they become bench personnel? When they leave the court or after their legal substitute enters or when the coach is informed of the 5th foul. The distinction is important in the fact that bench personnel TF results in loss of coaching box and an indirect T foul to the coach.

[bob jenkins]

Post 11 gives a case play (10.3.6C) -- what section of the book (player technical or bench technical?) is that in?

See 4-34 for information on when individuals become players and bench personnel (esp Article 3).

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

My question to go along with this is when do they become bench personnel? When they leave the court or after their legal substitute enters or when the coach is informed of the 5th foul. The distinction is important in the fact that bench personnel TF results in loss of coaching box and an indirect T foul to the coach.

For those without book access at the moment ...

4-34

ART. 3

A substitute becomes a player when he/she legally enters the court. If entry is not legal, the substitute becomes a player when the ball becomes live. A player becomes bench personnel after his/her substitute becomes a player or after notification of the coach following his/her disqualification.

Hmm, I always thought a substitute becomes a player (and vice-versa) when they are beckoned onto the court by an official. Is this still applicable or is there a caveat?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Hmm, I always thought a substitute becomes a player (and vice-versa) when they are beckoned onto the court by an official. Is this still applicable or is there a caveat?

A substitute legally enters the court by being beckoned by an official.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Hmm, I always thought a substitute becomes a player (and vice-versa) when they are beckoned onto the court by an official. Is this still applicable or is there a caveat?

In most cases "beckoned" and "legally enters" are pretty much synonymous.

When they are not, go by the rule.

The rule is what's stated above.

Note that 4.43.3 says "A6 became a player upon being beckoned and entering the court."