So Easy, Even a Caveman Can Do ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

... she never realized we were shooting the free throws. We made the second shot, and she grabbed the ball and took it out of bounds ... The opponents reacted to her and started forming up their full-court press. We inbounded and our senior captain laid the ball in for a layup. Then the officials figured it out...and decided "do-over".

What? High school varsity players being confused during a throwin? Impossible. It could never happen. Never. Ever. If seventh graders would never, ever, be confused during a throwin, then how can high school varsity players be confused during a throwin? Wait. I'm being told ... Where? Pennsylvania? Who? Girls? Never mind.

[JRutledge]

We officiate mistakes and confusion all the time. What else is new? And we do not have do-overs every time it happens.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And we do not have do-overs every time it happens.

I never said "every time". Only with younger players, only with confused players, only early in the season, only early in the game, and only when we have an assigner, a league president, coaches, principals, and all of the officials that work that league, all on the same page. There's a lot of wiggle room in the spectrum of different approaches to how to run a basketball league, all the way from a purely instructional league, to all the way up to a purely competitive league. The kids play the game, but the adults (see above) are in charge, and make up the rules, or whether, or not, to bend some rules.

[Adam]

It wasn't locked due to sarcasm, it was locked because the topic was exhausted and the new thread wasn't really anything new. As I noted in that thread, the case play you posted was not a "do over," it was a DOG warning.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

The case play you posted was not a "do over," it was a DOG warning.

One play had a team technical foul charged, with a penalty of two free throws taken by the best free throw shooter on the team, in addition to the delay of game warning. The other had no penalty other than the delay of game warning. That may not be a 100% do-over, but sure is pretty close, especially if the shooter makes both free throws in the non-do-over play.

[JRutledge]

Huh?

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

One play had a team technical foul charged, with a penalty of two free throws taken by the best free throw shooter on the team, in addition to the delay of game warning. The other had no penalty other than the delay of game warning. That may not be a 100% do-over, but sure is pretty close, especially if the shooter makes both free throws in the non-do-over play.

No, it's not close to a do-over. It's simply the removal of the "unsporting" aspect. The action is penalized, not ignored. And it's penalized by rule (DOG) for delaying the game.

Edit: And in the interest of discussion, I've merged these and re-opened.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

No, it's not close to a do-over. It's simply the removal of the "unsporting" aspect. The action is penalized, not ignored. And it's penalized by rule (DOG) for delaying the game.

For sake of moving this discussion along, I will reluctantly admit that this is not a backyard, or sandlot, variety do-over.

However, to my other point, 10.1.8 does back up my contention that the NFHS feels that high school varsity basketball players can become confused during a throwin situation (in this case a very specific situation) and (in this very specific case) that confusion can result in rules being "bent". If the NFHS feels that high school varsity players can become confused during a throwin, then why can't some admit that seventh graders can also become confused during a throwin. I do not expect others to allow a do-over, that's the "When in Rome" aspect of this, but I would think that they could just admit that some seventh graders, especially the "leftover" seventh graders that play in my Catholic middle school "junior varsity" league, can, early in the season (we have a no press rule in place during the first half of the season), become confused during a throwin.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

then why can't some admit that seventh graders can also become confused during a throwin.

I don't recall anyone saying 7th graders couldn't get confused.

I do not expect others to allow a do-over, that's the "When in Rome" aspect of this,

If you have a specific league rule that this should be a do-over, then great. Follow it. But you don't need to repeat your point over and over again to make it.

And, if everyone put in every local rule (for lower level games) everytime, the threads would be unending. "Yeah, but in our rec leagues we allow pressing until the point differential is 10" "That can't be right -- we allow it until it's 15" "We penalize with a delay warning and then a direct T" "We penalize with a do-over -- you guys are nuts" etc.

and, absent a specific rule, most are telling you that this is NOT a situation to be "managed" by ignoring the rule -- instead, just enforce it. You, of course, are free to ignore the advice.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

and, absent a specific rule, most are telling you that this is NOT a situation to be "managed" by ignoring the rule -- instead, just enforce it. You, of course, are free to ignore the advice.

And the one thing Billy seems to not understand as many of the comments I am sure was not advice; it was simply stating what an individual would do if they were faced with the situation. What others do is ultimately up to them and their experience to determine

Not everything we do also is subjected to what an assignor (When in Rome crap) says or an area association wants. Sometimes we are hired because the right people trust our judgment and our game management skills no matter the level or situation.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Most are telling you that this is NOT a situation to be "managed" by ignoring the rule ... are free to ignore the advice.

I've never advocated ignoring the rule, i.e. no whistle, and play on.

I received good advice from quite a few Forum members, including a few esteemed members:

7th grade? I'd probably kill the play and bring them back, depending on the talent level on the court. Adam

At that level you could either blow the whistle and point to the player to properly inbound the ball ... depending on how generous and/or teachable you are feeling. AremRed

This is what my partner & I did in our 7th grade game last week. Stat-Man

Elementary, and Junior High, I am stopping play and bringing them back for a proper throw in, once, and explaining the correct thing to do. OKREF

Seems like common sense to me. Falls into the same category as getting them lined up for free throws properly...certainly not by the book, but I'm looking to help teach the game at this level. Bad Zebra

At those levels, you have to call the game to a level that they specific players in the game are ready for. Camron Rust

It's 7th grade basketball. Blow the whistle as soon as they grab ball and tell the player what to do ... we are not only enforcing the rules but coaching a little bit in the younger grades. I've never had an opposing coach get upset for helping out on a play like that. KevinP

I agree with … your position. Adam

I probably approach this the way Billy does. Adam

I also received good advice from those that want to enforce the rule as stated in the casebook play. Calling the violation really is another effective way of teaching seventh graders the rules. However, for me, and for a few others (see above), with younger players, with confused players, early in the season, and early in the game, we might handle this in a manner that differs with the casebook play.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

For sake of moving this discussion along, I will reluctantly admit that this is not a backyard, or sandlot, variety do-over.

However, to my other point, 10.1.8 does back up my contention that the NFHS feels that high school varsity basketball players can become confused during a throwin situation (in this case a very specific situation) and (in this very specific case) that confusion can result in rules being "bent". If the NFHS feels that high school varsity players can become confused during a throwin, then why can't some admit that seventh graders can also become confused during a throwin. I do not expect others to allow a do-over, that's the "When in Rome" aspect of this, but I would think that they could just admit that some seventh graders, especially the "leftover" seventh graders that play in my Catholic middle school "junior varsity" league, can, early in the season (we have a no press rule in place during the first half of the season), become confused during a throwin.

First of all, this case play does not result in rules being bent. The sportsmanship rule is all about intent, and this case play follows the rules to the letter. Remember, if a DOG warning had already been issued, this would result in a technical foul. The case play is merely giving guidance on when to call an unsportsmanlike player technical for delaying the game.

No rules are being bent.

Second of all, no one said 7th graders won't get confused. Some are saying they'd be less lenient than others; and frankly, I think the differences expressed are way overblown and most of us here would rule the same way given the same set of players.

[Eastshire]

Let's say we determine it was not due to confusion and that A already has a DOG warning.

Do we assess two technicals? One for a) and one for b)?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

... no one said 7th graders won't get confused.

"We think they cannot handle what not to do on a throw-in?"

"Basketball how hard is it to know the ball has to be throw-in out of bounds? Sounds simple to me."

"That might be the case is some places, but not in the places that I am familiar"