So Easy, Even a Caveman Can Do ...

[BillyMac]

Wow. Imagine that, a varsity high school player being confused on a throwin, and getting a do-over, i.e. not being charged with a technical foul. Even a seventh grader can understand throwin rules without be confused, and needing a do-over. Stupid NFHS.

10.1.8 SITUATION: Immediately following a goal or free throw by Team A, A1
inbounds the ball to A2 and A2 subsequently throws the ball through A’s basket.
RULING: The following procedure has been adopted to handle this specific situation
if it is recognized before the opponents gain control or before the next
throw-in begins: (a) charge Team A with an unsporting technical foul; (b) assess
a delay-of-game warning for interfering with the ball after a goal; (c) cancel the
field goal; (d) cancel any common foul(s) committed and any non-flagrant foul
against A2 in the act of shooting; and (e) put “consumed” time back on the clock.
COMMENT: If there is no doubt the throw-in was a result of confusion, the entire
procedure would be followed except no unsporting team technical foul would be
charged. A team technical would be assessed if the team had received a previous
delay warning. This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in
which an official administers the throw-in and a mistake allows the wrong team
to inbound the ball. (4-47-3; 7-6-6; 10-1-5d)

I fully realize that this casebook play is only for a very specific situation, but I'm just thinking out loud: high school age, throwin, confusion, do-over. Imagine the NFHS suggesting some type of do-over for a confused high school age player during a throwin? Stupid NFHS. Players, especially high school players, and even seventh grade players, never get confused, and require do-overs, on throwins. Never. Ever.

[Adam]

Billy, this is not a do-over. A DOG warning is being assessed either way, and the only lenience given for confusion is the removal of the "unsporting" aspect. Same procedure for a player who shoots free throws that belong to his teammate if we think there might be confusion.

[Welpe]

We just saw this movie. Time to let it simmer for a while.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

No idea why BillyMac's thread was locked, but I wanted to comment. When I was coaching (HS varsity), I put in a sub in-between two free throws. I was instructing her the whole time she never realized we were shooting the free throws. We made the second shot, and she grabbed the ball and took it out of bounds (and yes, she was sort of a cave"man" ). The opponents reacted to her and started forming up their full-court press. We inbounded and our senior captain laid the ball in for a layup. Then the officials figured it out...and decided "do-over". This was 2002 or 2003.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

... she never realized we were shooting the free throws. We made the second shot, and she grabbed the ball and took it out of bounds ... The opponents reacted to her and started forming up their full-court press. We inbounded and our senior captain laid the ball in for a layup. Then the officials figured it out...and decided "do-over".

What? High school varsity players being confused during a throwin? Impossible. It could never happen. Never. Ever. If seventh graders would never, ever, be confused during a throwin, then how can high school varsity players be confused during a throwin? Wait. I'm being told ... Where? Pennsylvania? Who? Girls? Never mind.

[JRutledge]

We officiate mistakes and confusion all the time. What else is new? And we do not have do-overs every time it happens.

Peace

[Adam]

It wasn't locked due to sarcasm, it was locked because the topic was exhausted and the new thread wasn't really anything new. As I noted in that thread, the case play you posted was not a "do over," it was a DOG warning.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And we do not have do-overs every time it happens.

I never said "every time". Only with younger players, only with confused players, only early in the season, only early in the game, and only when we have an assigner, a league president, coaches, principals, and all of the officials that work that league, all on the same page. There's a lot of wiggle room in the spectrum of different approaches to how to run a basketball league, all the way from a purely instructional league, to all the way up to a purely competitive league. The kids play the game, but the adults (see above) are in charge, and make up the rules, or whether, or not, to bend some rules.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

The case play you posted was not a "do over," it was a DOG warning.

One play had a team technical foul charged, with a penalty of two free throws taken by the best free throw shooter on the team, in addition to the delay of game warning. The other had no penalty other than the delay of game warning. That may not be a 100% do-over, but sure is pretty close, especially if the shooter makes both free throws in the non-do-over play.

[JRutledge]

Huh?

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

One play had a team technical foul charged, with a penalty of two free throws taken by the best free throw shooter on the team, in addition to the delay of game warning. The other had no penalty other than the delay of game warning. That may not be a 100% do-over, but sure is pretty close, especially if the shooter makes both free throws in the non-do-over play.

No, it's not close to a do-over. It's simply the removal of the "unsporting" aspect. The action is penalized, not ignored. And it's penalized by rule (DOG) for delaying the game.

Edit: And in the interest of discussion, I've merged these and re-opened.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

No, it's not close to a do-over. It's simply the removal of the "unsporting" aspect. The action is penalized, not ignored. And it's penalized by rule (DOG) for delaying the game.

For sake of moving this discussion along, I will reluctantly admit that this is not a backyard, or sandlot, variety do-over.

However, to my other point, 10.1.8 does back up my contention that the NFHS feels that high school varsity basketball players can become confused during a throwin situation (in this case a very specific situation) and (in this very specific case) that confusion can result in rules being "bent". If the NFHS feels that high school varsity players can become confused during a throwin, then why can't some admit that seventh graders can also become confused during a throwin. I do not expect others to allow a do-over, that's the "When in Rome" aspect of this, but I would think that they could just admit that some seventh graders, especially the "leftover" seventh graders that play in my Catholic middle school "junior varsity" league, can, early in the season (we have a no press rule in place during the first half of the season), become confused during a throwin.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

then why can't some admit that seventh graders can also become confused during a throwin.

I don't recall anyone saying 7th graders couldn't get confused.

I do not expect others to allow a do-over, that's the "When in Rome" aspect of this,

If you have a specific league rule that this should be a do-over, then great. Follow it. But you don't need to repeat your point over and over again to make it.

And, if everyone put in every local rule (for lower level games) everytime, the threads would be unending. "Yeah, but in our rec leagues we allow pressing until the point differential is 10" "That can't be right -- we allow it until it's 15" "We penalize with a delay warning and then a direct T" "We penalize with a do-over -- you guys are nuts" etc.

and, absent a specific rule, most are telling you that this is NOT a situation to be "managed" by ignoring the rule -- instead, just enforce it. You, of course, are free to ignore the advice.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

For sake of moving this discussion along, I will reluctantly admit that this is not a backyard, or sandlot, variety do-over.

However, to my other point, 10.1.8 does back up my contention that the NFHS feels that high school varsity basketball players can become confused during a throwin situation (in this case a very specific situation) and (in this very specific case) that confusion can result in rules being "bent". If the NFHS feels that high school varsity players can become confused during a throwin, then why can't some admit that seventh graders can also become confused during a throwin. I do not expect others to allow a do-over, that's the "When in Rome" aspect of this, but I would think that they could just admit that some seventh graders, especially the "leftover" seventh graders that play in my Catholic middle school "junior varsity" league, can, early in the season (we have a no press rule in place during the first half of the season), become confused during a throwin.

First of all, this case play does not result in rules being bent. The sportsmanship rule is all about intent, and this case play follows the rules to the letter. Remember, if a DOG warning had already been issued, this would result in a technical foul. The case play is merely giving guidance on when to call an unsportsmanlike player technical for delaying the game.

No rules are being bent.

Second of all, no one said 7th graders won't get confused. Some are saying they'd be less lenient than others; and frankly, I think the differences expressed are way overblown and most of us here would rule the same way given the same set of players.

[Eastshire]

Let's say we determine it was not due to confusion and that A already has a DOG warning.

Do we assess two technicals? One for a) and one for b)?