Disconcertion From The Bench

[BillyMac]

NFHS: Possible disconcertion violation of a free throw, even if the clapping came from the bench.

Note: I did not start this thread. It's been pulled, fairly, from another thread that included a lengthy, but professional, debate.

"I love the smell of a debate in the morning." (with apologies to Lieutenant Colonel Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now)

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS: Possible disconcertion violation of a free throw, even if the clapping came from the bench.

Still an open question for me.
9-3c does say, "No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower." However, at camp a couple of years ago I did call disconcertion on the players on the bench for, after a warning on the first FT, continued to yell at the FT'er during his second FT. Was roundly criticized by clinician whose opinion meshed with the consensus on this forum: that disconcertion applies regarding players on the floor; unsporting T (perhaps after a warning) would be the only fitting penalty that could be called against those on the bench.
Given the wording of the rule, I do not agree with my clinician and with the consensus on this forum, so I guess I'm leaving it, for now, as an open question awaiting definitive resolution.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Was roundly criticized by clinician whose opinion meshed with the consensus on this forum....

Given the wording of the rule, I do not agree with my clinician and with the consensus on this forum,.....

Why do you think it's the consensus?

My experience is that camps are always more focused on philosophy than rules.

[Zoochy]

I had a partner call disconcerting on Cheerleaders.
That went over well :-P

[Raymond]

What's the rule book say?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What's the rule book say?

Let's go to the videotape (Warner Wolf):

Originally Posted by Freddy

9-3c does say, "No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower." .

[stripes]

This is not golf.

Noise is part of the game.

I would be VERY JUDICIOUS in calling disconcertion on bench personnel.

Every time this topic comes up, the first thought that crosses my mind is "why would an official look for trouble?" IMO, calling disconcertion is looking for trouble that is not there.

Flame on...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by stripes

This is not golf.

Noise is part of the game.

I would be VERY JUDICIOUS in calling disconcertion on bench personnel.

Every time this topic comes up, the first thought that crosses my mind is "why would an official look for trouble?" IMO, calling disconcertion is looking for trouble that is not there.

Flame on...

No flames. I agree. In order for me to even address it, it's going to have to be an obviously concerted effort; such as a chant or stomp.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by stripes

I would be VERY JUDICIOUS in calling disconcertion on bench personnel.

Originally Posted by Adam

In order for me to even address it, it's going to have to be an obviously concerted effort; such as a chant or stomp.

For me, once in thirty-two seasons, and that was in a boys high school recreation game. How's that for judicious? If I were to call this in a high school varsity game, it would probably involve some type of warning before I go to the "nuclear" option, although, if I ever came across it, the entire bench yelling "Miss. Miss. Miss ... ", at the top of their lungs would probably not get that warning, just the arm, and fist, parallel to the floor. Some might probably call this unsporting, but that's another story, for another time. Goodnight moon.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by Adam

No flames. I agree. In order for me to even address it, it's going to have to be an obviously concerted effort; such as a chant or stomp.

GV game, a few years ago: 1st half - during 1st of 2 FT's - bench players: "stomp, stomp, clap, clap, "Miss it! Miss it!" and repeated . . .
Delayed violation signal, and shooter made the 1st shot. We then informed the coach that the choreographed actions would not be tolerated, and could be considered unsporting. She asked if they couldn't say anything during the shots.
We replied that the issue was the choreography, and as long as the verbiage and comments were not out-of-line, they could feel free to express themselves. She and her players seemed to understand, and we had no further incidents.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by stripes

This is not golf.

Noise is part of the game.

If you're talking about the crowd making noise I'm in complete agreement. Players, either on the court or on the bench, are not part of the crowd however (i.e., they didn't pay admission to get into the gym).

That being said, I agree that they would have to do something pretty outrageous to get me thinking about calling disconcertion.

[mtn335]

What about band/cheerleaders? They're in that in-between-place of not being members of the crowd, but not being participants.

I had a situation season before last where an idiot drummer in the band kept absently playing rudiments on the floor or on his snare drum while the ball was live. I've been to this school many times and have a good relationship with the AD and table personnel, so I quietly asked that the band folks be reminded about the rule.

It mostly stopped, but at one point (intentionally or otherwise) in the second half, this kid hit his drum right as a visiting player was starting her free-throw motion. Her head visibly jerked toward the sound, and the free throw missed badly.

I awarded a replacement. Covered by rule? Uh, questionable. Fair? Well, I thought so...

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Let's go to the videotape (Warner Wolf):

Billy:

I miss Warner Wolfe. I guess we are showing our age with a Warner Wolfe reference.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Still an open question for me.
9-3c does say, "No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower." However, at camp a couple of years ago I did call disconcertion on the players on the bench for, after a warning on the first FT, continued to yell at the FT'er during his second FT. Was roundly criticized by clinician whose opinion meshed with the consensus on this forum: that disconcertion applies regarding players on the floor; unsporting T (perhaps after a warning) would be the only fitting penalty that could be called against those on the bench.
Given the wording of the rule, I do not agree with my clinician and with the consensus on this forum, so I guess I'm leaving it, for now, as an open question awaiting definitive resolution.

Freddy:

I am going to piggy back onto you post because brings of some of the points I am going to discuss.


First: Short Form!! That will happen when the Sun rises in the West.


Second:

This is the first time that this subject has been discussed in the Basketball Forum in at least five years if I am not mistaken.


Third: Do not even consider cheerleaders and fans when applying this rule.


Fourth: I am going to be up front with my positions:

1) Opponent in the context of the Disconcertion Rule (NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's) that the rule applies to the five defensive players on the court; it does NOT apply to Bench Personnel.

2) The word Opponent has never been defined in the Rules. That means it allows us to have this discussion.

3) Disconcertion Action is a Violation and NFHS Rule 4, Section 46, Articles 1, 2, and 3 define the three Types of Violations and references Rule 9 for further definitions of Violations. NCAA Rule 4, Section 77 references Rule 9 for definitions of Violations; Rule 9 does not break down violations into Types 1, 2, and 3 (see NFHS) but does define Floor Violations (See NFHS Type 1).


I agree with the clinicians at the camp you attended. I believe that unsportsmanlike conduct from the bench has to be punished and that yelling at the FT Shooter falls within in the definition of unsportsmanlike conduct. That said, I am not consistent in my application of the rule.

No matter what the level of competition, if the violation is committed by someone other than the substitutes, the penalty will be a TF.

When it comes to the violation being committed by a substitute the level of competition definitely determines what I decide the infraction I call: Violation or TF.

At this point I should state that I always try to use preventative officiating whenever possible so as to avoid TF situations.

Regarding infractions by subs: H.S. level and above, almost always will charge the offender with a TF. Jr. H.S. level and below: unless very egregious I will go with the violation at least the first time. The lower level competition is a good time for we officials to educate whenever possible.

End my $100 two cents opinion.

MTD, Sr.

[BigT]

Originally Posted by zoochy

i had a partner call disconcerting on cheerleaders.
That went over well :-p

roflmao