Disconcertion From The Bench

[BillyMac]

NFHS: Possible disconcertion violation of a free throw, even if the clapping came from the bench.

Note: I did not start this thread. It's been pulled, fairly, from another thread that included a lengthy, but professional, debate.

"I love the smell of a debate in the morning." (with apologies to Lieutenant Colonel Bill Kilgore, Apocalypse Now)

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS: Possible disconcertion violation of a free throw, even if the clapping came from the bench.

Still an open question for me.
9-3c does say, "No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower." However, at camp a couple of years ago I did call disconcertion on the players on the bench for, after a warning on the first FT, continued to yell at the FT'er during his second FT. Was roundly criticized by clinician whose opinion meshed with the consensus on this forum: that disconcertion applies regarding players on the floor; unsporting T (perhaps after a warning) would be the only fitting penalty that could be called against those on the bench.
Given the wording of the rule, I do not agree with my clinician and with the consensus on this forum, so I guess I'm leaving it, for now, as an open question awaiting definitive resolution.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Was roundly criticized by clinician whose opinion meshed with the consensus on this forum....

Given the wording of the rule, I do not agree with my clinician and with the consensus on this forum,.....

Why do you think it's the consensus?

My experience is that camps are always more focused on philosophy than rules.

[Zoochy]

I had a partner call disconcerting on Cheerleaders.
That went over well :-P

[Raymond]

What's the rule book say?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What's the rule book say?

Let's go to the videotape (Warner Wolf):

Originally Posted by Freddy

9-3c does say, "No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower." .

[BigT]

Originally Posted by zoochy

i had a partner call disconcerting on cheerleaders.
That went over well :-p

roflmao

[BigT]

Originally Posted by BigT

roflmao

I knew a referee who was slapped on the butt by a cheerleader last year. That would have distracted me... what on earth did the cheerleader do to give this guy another shot?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Still an open question for me.
9-3c does say, "No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower." However, at camp a couple of years ago I did call disconcertion on the players on the bench for, after a warning on the first FT, continued to yell at the FT'er during his second FT. Was roundly criticized by clinician whose opinion meshed with the consensus on this forum: that disconcertion applies regarding players on the floor; unsporting T (perhaps after a warning) would be the only fitting penalty that could be called against those on the bench.
Given the wording of the rule, I do not agree with my clinician and with the consensus on this forum, so I guess I'm leaving it, for now, as an open question awaiting definitive resolution.

Freddy:

I am going to piggy back onto you post because brings of some of the points I am going to discuss.


First: Short Form!! That will happen when the Sun rises in the West.


Second:

This is the first time that this subject has been discussed in the Basketball Forum in at least five years if I am not mistaken.


Third: Do not even consider cheerleaders and fans when applying this rule.


Fourth: I am going to be up front with my positions:

1) Opponent in the context of the Disconcertion Rule (NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's) that the rule applies to the five defensive players on the court; it does NOT apply to Bench Personnel.

2) The word Opponent has never been defined in the Rules. That means it allows us to have this discussion.

3) Disconcertion Action is a Violation and NFHS Rule 4, Section 46, Articles 1, 2, and 3 define the three Types of Violations and references Rule 9 for further definitions of Violations. NCAA Rule 4, Section 77 references Rule 9 for definitions of Violations; Rule 9 does not break down violations into Types 1, 2, and 3 (see NFHS) but does define Floor Violations (See NFHS Type 1).


I agree with the clinicians at the camp you attended. I believe that unsportsmanlike conduct from the bench has to be punished and that yelling at the FT Shooter falls within in the definition of unsportsmanlike conduct. That said, I am not consistent in my application of the rule.

No matter what the level of competition, if the violation is committed by someone other than the substitutes, the penalty will be a TF.

When it comes to the violation being committed by a substitute the level of competition definitely determines what I decide the infraction I call: Violation or TF.

At this point I should state that I always try to use preventative officiating whenever possible so as to avoid TF situations.

Regarding infractions by subs: H.S. level and above, almost always will charge the offender with a TF. Jr. H.S. level and below: unless very egregious I will go with the violation at least the first time. The lower level competition is a good time for we officials to educate whenever possible.

End my $100 two cents opinion.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Do not even consider cheerleaders and fans when applying this rule.

Agree 100%.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The word Opponent has never been defined in the Rules.

Technically, true, but lets look outside of Rule 4 for some help from the NFHS as to how they define opponents:

2011-12 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
1. SPORTING BEHAVIOR. The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee continues to be concerned about the following behaviors:
A. Pregame Situations. Teams entering the gymnasium prior to the contest should not run through the area occupied by
the opposing team or under the basket where opponents are warming up.

I doubt that the opponents are only the five players (this is my best evidence, the rest is borderline silly).

NFHS Common Symptoms of Concussion Include: Unsure of game, score or opponent.

I doubt that the possibly concussed player is going to say the name of one of the five players, probably going to say, "East Oshkosh", referring to the entire team.

NFHS Coaches Code of Ethics: The coach shall not scout opponents by any means other than those adopted by the league and/or state high school athletic association.

I doubt that the coach is only going to scout five players at a time, he will probably scout the entire team.

The citations above are, granted, quite weak, and kind of lame, but they are evidence that leads me to believe that the NFHS considers opponents to include the five players, and bench personnel.

While not defined in Rule 4, we can always go to a dictionary:

Opponent (Noun): a person who is on an opposing side in a game, contest, controversy, or the like; adversary.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Opponent in the context of the Disconcertion Rule (NFHS) that the rule applies to the five defensive players on the court; it does NOT apply to Bench Personnel.

You could be correct, but I've yet to see any evidence, rule reference, case play, or any other citation from anyone on the Forum, or anywhere else, that proves that bench personnel can't be opponents. Nor have I seen any similar evidence to the contrary, i.e., supporting my side of the debate, other than the evidence that I have cited above. Does weak evidence trump no evidence?

Let's add a little mustard, just to make things interesting.

How about the opposing coach on the bench disconcerting the free thrower? He's not a player, but he is part of the bench personnel. Is he an opponent? Could we go with a violation, or do we go directly to an unsporting technical foul?

Note: Thanks for letting Mark come out to play with us Mrs. DeNucci.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Agree 100%.



Technically, true, but lets look outside of Rule 4 for some help from the NFHS as to how they define opponents:

2011-12 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
1. SPORTING BEHAVIOR. The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee continues to be concerned about the following behaviors:
A. Pregame Situations. Teams entering the gymnasium prior to the contest should not run through the area occupied by
the opposing team or under the basket where opponents are warming up.

I doubt that the opponents are only the five players (this is my best evidence, the rest is borderline silly).

NFHS Common Symptoms of Concussion Include: Unsure of game, score or opponent.

I doubt that the possibly concussed player is going to say the name of one of the five players, probably going to say, "East Oshkosh", referring to the entire team.

NFHS Coaches Code of Ethics: The coach shall not scout opponents by any means other than those adopted by the league and/or state high school athletic association.

I doubt that the coach is only going to scout five players at a time, he will probably scout the entire team.

The citations above are, granted, quite weak, and kind of lame, but they are evidence that leads me to believe that the NFHS considers opponents to include the five players, and bench personnel.

While not defined in Rule 4, we can always go to a dictionary:

Opponent (Noun): a person who is on an opposing side in a game, contest, controversy, or the like; adversary.



You could be correct, but I've yet to see any evidence, rule reference, case play, or any other citation from anyone on the Forum, or anywhere else, that proves that bench personnel can't be opponents. Nor have I seen any similar evidence to the contrary, i.e., supporting my side of the debate, other than the evidence that I have cited above. Does weak evidence trump no evidence?

Let's add a little mustard, just to make things interesting.

How about the opposing coach on the bench disconcerting the free thrower? He's not a player, but he is part of the bench personnel. Is he an opponent? Could we go with a violation, or do we go directly to an unsporting technical foul?

Note: Thanks for letting Mark come out to play with us Mrs. DeNucci.

Billy:

I want to thank you for adding valid points to the discussion. (I was too lazy to climb up into the attic to read them. ) But you show how muddle the information is concerning this particular rule.

When pressed for a definitive interpretation, I will go with the interpretation that says Violation for the five defensive players on the court and TF for Bench Personnel. BUT I wouldn't get upset if an official only enforced a Violation on Bench Personnel if the infraction was not egregious. That is why I am more flexible with games played at the Jr. H.S. level and below.

Until the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees define what is an opponent per the Disconcertion Rule, we will continue to have this discussion.

MTD, Sr.

[Zoochy]

Why do opposing coaches yell "Rebound" during a Free Throw? Sometimes it is on the 1st of 2 throws. No intent to disconcert there.

[Jim Henry]

I never allow opponents to stomp feet, chant or make other noise during a foul shot. When I hear it I warn the coach. That's all it takes and they stop. Only seen it at grade or junior high games. Sometimes I question though when I hear the coach or players shout to their teammates, "Who's got shooter!?!" right when the shooter is taking the shot. But I ignore it. I don't see it as disconcertion from the bench. I always ignore cheerleaders and fans who make noise during free throws.

[Adam]

If the defense is loudly asking "who's got shooter" just prior to a shot, before I bounce the ball for the next shot, I'll ask, "Who's got shooter?"
The one who has the shooter will identify himself, and the kids get my point.