Jump Ball - Movement Prior to Touch

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Our rules interpreter when I was trained recommended stating "Hold your spots around the circle" prior to the toss for a couple of reasons:

It allows for the officials to address ART. 3 if necessary
"Teammates may not occupy adjacent positions around the center restraining circle if an opponent indicates a desire for one of these positions before the referee is ready to toss the ball."

It serves as an indication to the players that the official is ready and therefore:
"until the ball is tossed, nonjumpers shall not:
a. Move onto the center restraining circle.
b. Change position around the center restraining circle."
and
"until the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers, nonjumpers
shall not:
a. Have either foot break the plane of the center restraining circle cylinder.
b. Take a position in any occupied space."

If a player moves legally, for example, backing directly out from the circle without entering an occupied space, the official would carry on as no violation has occured. The official is also not saying for how long the player must hold their spot. It is up to the player to know the rule if they desire to move. A player located off of the center circle could "hold their spot" for a half second as an indication that they do not desire to move onto the center circle, and the continue to move legally.

As for stating "Don't move" ... I can't defend that one. But I do like "Hold your spots around the circle" as a simple game administration technique. It is also the standard practice in my association.

It's standard practice in your association but...my ultimate question would be why is your rules interpreter telling the association to do something that isn't part of the rule book? I know you gave a list of justifications but how am I supposed to trust an interpreter who tells me to do the wrong thing?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Because if the players don't move then the official doesn't need to worry about whether they moved on or off or around and whether it was before the ball was tossed or touched.

By that logic the official should also tell all the players not to foul or commit any violations. The official wouldn't then have to worry about any of those!

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

By that logic the official should also tell all the players not to foul or commit any violations. The official wouldn't then have to worry about any of those!

How about, "Let it hit the rim"?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Our rules interpreter when I was trained recommended stating "Hold your spots around the circle" prior to the toss for a couple of reasons ... as a simple game administration technique. It is also the standard practice in my association.

By all means, when in Rome ...

But your interpreter is 100% wrong, leaving the circle, which is always legal, is not holding your spot around the circle, I don't care how he spins it. As backward as we are here in the Land of Steady Habits (two person games, black belts, etc.), no interpreter around these parts would suggest any such standard practice, individual officials, maybe, but as an interpreter suggested mechanic, no way, José.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Because if the players don't move then the official doesn't need to worry about whether they moved on or off or around and whether it was before the ball was tossed or touched.

Less worries if we just flip a damn coin.

(I hope that Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. is moderating the Cricket Forum and won't read this. He gets a little testy when we discuss jump balls and would prefer to go back to prehistoric times when we didn't have the alternating possession arrow and had dozens of jump balls in a game.)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

How about, "Let it hit the rim"?

Yep, and "don't move" or "stay there" on a throw-in.

And, when is the referee "ready to toss"? When s/he (meant in all cases below) blows the whistle? Enters the circle? Asks the captains if their team is heady? If he is ready and then somone moves, can he "unready" himself and re-set or is it always an immediate violation?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yep, and "don't move" or "stay there" on a throw-in.

And, when is the referee "ready to toss"? When s/he (meant in all cases below) blows the whistle? Enters the circle? Asks the captains if their team is heady? If he is ready and then somone moves, can he "unready" himself and re-set or is it always an immediate violation?

There's no definition in the manual but I consider myself (or the tossing official) ready once the whistle is blown prior to the toss. That's a pretty good alert for everyone that we're about to get going.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yep, and "don't move" or "stay there" on a throw-in.

Maybe it's overkill, but our local interpreter has instructed us to indicate, "That's your spot", accompanied by pointing to the spot, or, "You can move" (Option: "You've got the whole line"), accompanied by a sweeping motion of the arm while pointing, on all backcourt endline throwins, and only backcourt endline throwins. Some will criticize that it's excess verbiage, and signalage, and not necessary, that the kids should already know this, but at least the statements agree with the actual rules. I believe that IAABO mechanics also require this, but I may be mistaken.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yep, and "don't move" or "stay there" on a throw-in.

And, "Who's the speaking captain". Wait? I'm being told that that's an actual rule. Never mind.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

By that logic the official should also tell all the players not to foul or commit any violations. The official wouldn't then have to worry about any of those!

So you never tell a player, "Get out of the lane!" or "Don't push!"?

It's called preventive officiating. You should try it. It works well.

[JRutledge]

I have no problem with saying these things if in conveys a message. The coaches and players are supposed to know the rules. And many things we do the players or coaches have no idea what is illegal. Just look at Nate Robinson of the Bulls multiple times violated as a jumper and moved and never tried to jump for the ball. It makes little or no difference to me as long as the comment conveys the right message. And telling players to "not move" is harmless IMO.

Peace

[Raymond]

I worked a Pro Am game today. One of the players will be on a D3 coaching staff this season. Last week he was setting questionable rolling screens. Today, before the game, I went up to him and said, "I hope you aren't going to teach your big men that illegal screen this year." He laughed and said "oh, you caught that. It won't be a problem today."

Guess what, he didn't come close to doing today. Preventive officiating is a good thing.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

By all means, when in Rome ...

But your interpreter is 100% wrong, leaving the circle, which is always legal, is not holding your spot around the circle, I don't care how he spins it. As backward as we are here in the Land of Steady Habits (two person games, black belts, etc.), no interpreter around these parts would suggest any such standard practice, individual officials, maybe, but as an interpreter suggested mechanic, no way, José.

I think, as was pointed out, that this is basically preventative officiating. It's also a recommendation, not a direction that must be followed. Basically, the interpreter who runs the training class for new officials mentioned this as a good game management technique to get the game started without a jump ball violation (which is always preferred) if there is a lot of movement around the circle when you are ready to get started.

If you have players shuffling around the circle or into occupied space before the jump, wouldn't you say something? How long are you going to wait for players to get situated? Hold your spots around the circle accomplishes the goal and technically speaking, your not saying how long they are to hold the spot. So after saying this, players get situated, official blows whistle and administers jump.

Also, I guess if you leave the circle (legally) then you are no longer around the circle and thus don't need to hold the spot.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

A good game management technique.

No, it's a bad game management technique because it doesn't match the rules. It's like telling players not to "move" on a designated spot throwin, which is wrong because they can move their feet within a three foot wide area, and can move as far back as they can in five seconds. Or it's like telling high school players to let it "hit the rim" on a free throw, which is also wrong because they can legally move into the lane when the ball hits the backboard, which could become an issue if the ball hits the backboard first and then subsequently hits the rim, and the rebound, and an easy putback if it's by an offensive player, is taken by the player who didn't listen to the officials advice and moved into the lane when it hit the backboard, leaving the player who waited for it to hit the rim wondering why his opponent was allowed in the lane "early".

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I guess if you leave the circle (legally) then you are no longer around the circle and thus don't need to hold the spot.

Why put "legally" in parentheses? It's always legal to move away from the circle. It's never illegal to move away form the circle. And when a player is on the circle and leaves the circle he is not "holding his spot", no matter how you spin it. If one player follows your "hold your spot" advice and an opponent, knowing the correct rule, moves away early and gains an advantage, then that's just not fair, and as the player who didn't move watches his opponent go in for an easy layup and looks to you for help, then just what are you going to say to him? Sorry?

I have no problem with preventative officiating by talking to players, I'm just not going to say things to the players that are not factually correct.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Maybe it's overkill, but our local interpreter has instructed us to indicate, "That's your spot", accompanied by pointing to the spot, or, "You can move" (Option: "You've got the whole line"), accompanied by a sweeping motion of the arm while pointing, on all backcourt endline throwins, and only backcourt endline throwins. Some will criticize that it's excess verbiage, and signalage, and not necessary, that the kids should already know this, but at least the statements agree with the actual rules. I believe that IAABO mechanics also require this, but I may be mistaken.

NFHS Officials Manual, 2.2 PUTTING THE BALL IN PLAY 2.2.2 C End Line 5. states ; "When the clock is stopped, use the proper verbal and visual signal to indicate whether a spot throw-in or running the end line privileges are in effect." - Signal 26 = Spot Throw-in, Signal 23 = Run End Line.

I haven't found an instruction to ask for the "speaking captain(s)," only the duty to conduct the coach/captain meeting, in 2.1 A Referee's Duties 10. of the Officials Manual.